Watch as Glibs DESTROY each other with FACTS and LOGIC. In this edition, we have Ozymandias vs. leon. The topic as given:
When we got this topic and I had the “pro,” I let out a groan. I used to love zoos when I was a kid. I still love animals – all of them… even hyenas – but as I got older and started taking my own kids to the zoo, the concept bothered me, as did the tired-looking lions and poo-flinging monkeys. These creatures deserved to be free, roaming in their natural habitats, fighting for life and yes, possible even dying as part of the “circle of life,” not caged.
Zoos have a long history in society. Often zoos have been kept for the enjoyment of the masses, and in more recent times as a method of grifting tax money from local and state governments into the Education-Industrial Complex. However like many aspects of society, its mere existence and common acceptance does not mean that the practice of keeping zoos is in any way ethical. What I argue today is that zoos are unethical.
First we must establish a common system of ethics for the treatment of animals. This debate is not over this method of ethics, so I will attempt to describe a system that I believe is be widely held, and non controversial. For this discussion when talking about animals I am referring, of course, to those animals as would be commonly held in a zoo.
The system I propose has 2 main points:
1. Animals have a right to their life, free from human interference except for valid human need.
2. The abrogation to an animals right to it’s life, must be done in the most humane manner consistent with the human need.
Now I want to walk through some quick examples to explain each of these points. First let’s examine the case of animal torture. Animal torture is widely regarded as unethical, and clearly under the proposed system it doesn’t meet the first point, as anyone arguing that the torture was a valid human need would be arguing that the right to interfere and take an animals life would be alone with no other reason be a valid human need. This completely undercuts the proposed system and thus can not be recognized as a legitimate ethical claim.
The second case I want to examine is that of the Livestock and the slaughter of livestock. Such animals (for better or worse) were long ago domesticated, and as such human interaction is baked into much of their existence. That being said such interference is associated with human need, in particular the provenance of food. Humans need to consume some levels of proteins in order to survive. As such the provenance of food and nutrition is a human need, necessary for human survival. Thus it does not undercut point 1, and so will be considered valid. Point 2 however dictates that when taking the life of such animals, it must be done in the most humane way, consistent with fulfilling the need of humans. This means methods for slaughtering an animal must be done in a way that is humane, and meets the legitimate demand of humans for food.
Zoos do not meet the requirements of Point 2. Zoos are (today) often justified as ways for people to be educated about wildlife. They are also sometimes used as means of protecting endangered species. However these are not the most humane ways of achieving this result. Zoos will transport animals well out of their biosphere, and put them in enclosures far to small for the animals they house. This is extremely disruptive to the lives of wildlife. Meanwhile wildlife preserves, and designated wildlife parks achieve the same purposes of education and conservation, in a manner that is much less disruptive to the species that are being protected. Preserves allow animals to live free and roam as they would sans human interference. Safaris and tours offer education opportunities, without caging animals in rooms smaller than human housing. Nature programming on television offers a cheap an less invasive means of the common man to become educated about the wildlife all around the world, without having to transport elephants to the high deserts of Utah, or polar bears to the deserts of Cairo.
So while zoos may be attempting to alleviate a valid human need for education, and even wildlife conservation, they do so in a tremendously inhumane way that overly intervenes in the lives of animals. As such they are unethical.
Vote here!
So what you’re saying is, we should free all the people from the cities and release them back into the wild?
No no. Criminals should forced to fight Siberia Tigers unarmed. It’s the only ethical solution.
Where they can… gambol
Pol Pot is pleased somebody finally realizes his brilliance.
Splendid idea! right now, they’re confined to casinos for the most part.
*checks spelling*
Oh…
*wanders off*
*GAMBOL*
gamboling is a gamble with all the nuclear bear arms out there.
My wife, a naturalist, went to a course on catching snakes run by the local herpetological society in the East Valley. That place keeps a whole lot of exotic, beautiful, unique reptiles from being destroyed AND gives curious kids and adults an opportunity to learn to better – peacefully – engage with those wonderful critters.
I know one vote you just lost amongst TPTB.
But onto the debate…close one. As a TPTB, I shan’t vote, nor comment….other than to say, this was well done.
Were it not for zoos a large percentage of the species in them would be extinct. I forget who said it…some guy who had a Rhino ranch in Africa and sold hunts but paraphrased “No animal that is of monetary value to people has ever gone extinct.” He was eventually closed down by do gooders and look where rhinos are now.
Zoos are more than just display cages. They do a lot of research and have breeding programs. Zoos are extremely beneficial to wildlife.
There really isn’t much left that we think of as ‘wild’ and the people living in 99% of other cultures couldn’t give a tinker’s damned about animal rights or welfare.
Keep the zoos.
Chickens are the most evolutionary successful bird. Wheat is the most economically successful grass.
And domestic dogs the most successful parasite.
I always laugh when I hear someone ponder the origins of the domestic dog….how in the world did we domesticate them? It’s such a mystery.
Feed one of the bastards and I dare you to get rid of them.
When I was younger and tougher I would camp out a fair amount….same spot every time. Five minutes after I laid in my sleeping bag the damned red wolves would show up in my campsite sniffing around for any scrap of food I might have left out. More than once I would have to open the tent and shoo them off so I could sleep.
How did we domesticate them? We didn’t. They domesticated us.
https://howitbegan.com/episodes/wolves-to-dogs/
Basically. And we’ve been friendly with each other so long we have influenced each other’s evolution.
Dogmestication.
I think its more mutually symbiotic than parasitic, but I’m not an animalologist.
A man alone in the woods – and I mean really alone and in real woods – even if well-trained, will still have a hard time of it. A man with a dog has improved his living chances exponentially. All of our weaknesses are covered by dogs from having to sleep at night, to adding heat from elements, hears/smells and will generally wake up and provide alarm well in advance of what we could do, can assist with hunting, protecting goods left behind in storage, etc. and on and on.
It is not an accident that a dog is man’s best friend.
You dont have a dog, do you?
*gets up for the 1000th time this morning to let a dog in, let a dog out, take a paper towel away from a dog about to shred it, pass out a treat, mop up pee etc.
I am a servant in my own home.
Your dog needs a companion dog, a canine friend. Like every first child needs a brother or sister.
By that definition, your children are parasites too.
So I guess you’ve convinced me.
We altered wolves which can kill a man one on one and which are truly amazingly deadly pack hunters to eat our garbage, fight to the death for us, warn us of dangers like the amazon guy, protect and tolerate our children with a love and loyalty almost unknown elsewhere, hunt for us and herd for us. What is a little pee compared to that?
Agree. Highly symbiotic.
AND SO FLUFFY!
So much so that I firmly believe dogs are better people than most people.
We should move them from zoos to circuses. At least then those animals can really be tortured for my amusement….
Thot Thursday remains a neutral arbiter in this debate.
http://archive.is/45iUx
Now Q nows how to settle a de- HOLY SHIT! Did you see #35?!? Now that’s… wait, what were we talking about again?
/shrugs, walks off
#45
37 is a dude.
Your pics nicely round out the page. I don’t know why the authors posted cock, pussy and ass pics, but forgot hooters.
Huh, I guess TPTB didn’t get hauled off to super secret wrong speak court after all.
Will RTDA!11! when time allows.
well done Ozy. I’ll refrain from responding to any points and only point out that STEVE SMITH cannot be caged….
He can only be… managed.
CAN NO STOP STEVE SMITH, CAN ONLY HOPE CONTAIN HE.
CONFIRMED: Leon is a long-haired pansy ass hippie who has no doubt recited the phrase “you can’t hug your children with nuclear arms” before in his life
Explains why you don’t want to war harder on Iran.
These fucking hippies haven’t watched enough anime.
Given: Each nation will, in the not to distant future, need mecha for.. reasons.
Given: Each nation will, in order to help increase observability on a tv screen and reduce the need for exposition, make their mecha in the image of their national mythos.
Given: Russia is known for four things, but vodka doesn’t make a lot of sense for a mecha.
Therefore: Russia will create a an Adidas-tracksuit-wearing, unstable-nuclear-reactor-powered, ursine mech.
Given: bears finishing move is the bear hug. Obviously.
Given: All mech anime worth a spit involves distant father/ alienated son dynamics
Therefore: In Real Life, someone will bear hug their child with nuclear powered bear arms.
Agreed. Leon’s kind disgust me.
It’s very on brand, though, for a listener of notorious Nazi Tom Woods to be spouting lovey dovey crap on the behalf of animals. The Nazis, after all, passed animal protection laws and Hitler was a vegan.
Nazi Hippies are the worst
Well done, leon! And thank you, good sir.
Now that the niceties are out of the way…
“The abrogation to an animals right to it’s life” – See? See what he did?? Look at that right there!! I should win by default, I tell ya!
/lights the Ted’S signal
/runs away cackling
The concepts carry over into pet ownership, too.
Do animals have rights? Under my authority based definition of rights, sure. Humans are an authority position over animals, and there are certain duties that humans have to individual animals and to animals as a whole.
What are those rights?
I’m not sure that a right to life is one of them.
My list includes a right to avoid undue suffering, a right to the necessities of life and enjoyment when held in captivity, and a right to avoid being hunted to extinction.
So it’s all good to kill individual members of a species, but not to wipe them out? And how do you assign individual responsibility here? Because you are talking about a collective human responsibility to protect an entire species of animals.
Yes, I’m saying that STEVE SMITH was an asshole for eating the last surviving mastodon.
Are we not doing this anymore?
Animals do not have rights. People have duties in their interactions with animals. The end result of the analysis may be similar, but none of the arguments for the existence of Natural Law and the rights of Man apply to the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, or any living thing that moves on the earth except man.
It looks like the administration is onto Swiss Servator and his gnome paymasters.
The damned Swiss started exchanging dollars for gold in the 1970’s leading Nixon to unilaterally revoke the exchange of international dollars for gold and effectively ending the Bretton Woods Agreement. So, yes, the Swiss lust for gold fucked shit up. Trump is permanently trapped in the 1980’s
The US having a “Currency Manipulator List” is like putting Iran on the UN Human Rights Council
Gotta keep track of your competition.
Why….Whatever do you mean?????
I have my own ethics and I will not be coerced into following yours.
Fuck off slaver?
Left to themselves a lot of animals would integrate and adapt into human society reasonably well. Coyotes, squirrels, deer, etc. The destruction of their natural habitat encourages them to modify their behavior. I’m thinking zoos provide a few of them opportunities that they would not get in the wilderness and allows us a chance to see them up close and learn about them. Many folks have not idea how stores get the food they sell, how milk gets in the jugs in the store refrigerator.
Being a glibertarian is pretty much like living in a zoo. While its a problem we’ve all more or less adapted.
Bears, deer, foxes, hawks, and turkey vultures are all thriving in my neighborhood.
#metoo, plus the neighbor’s dogs
Youtube doesn’t seem to have the Bullshit! clip about arresting animals for pissing and shitting everywhere. (Maybe animal’s in San Fran can be granted full rights without that being an issue)
Zoos are so radically different across the country. The OKC zoo has (or had, I haven’t been there in decades) huge enclosures where people have to use binoculars to see the animals unless they choose to come over to the ditch separating their area from people. Houston had small cages surrounded on all sides by crowds. I have a feeling the ecological suitability of an particular zoological garden is inversely proportional to its age.
When I was a wee child, I wanted to be a zookeeper. Then I grew out of that, but that’s probably only because we didn’t have cable TV and Animal Planet didn’t exist during my school years.
This^^. I’ve been to big cat rescues where they were all locked in cages barely big enough to pace around and had to timeshare the common space. (granted, these cats would all be dead without this place). I’ve also been to zoos where the ranging animals had acres to themselves.
Certainly joy a one size fits all situation
Not*
How can you concern yourselves with the ethical niceties of zookeeping when Donald trump is literally destroying civilization?
A fair question… that MAY be for the finalists!!
*looks out window*
What civilization?
Everyone is already dead from Net Neutrality after all.
…and the tax cuts.
Look it isn’t our fault you aren’t keeping up with the high brow art that our civilization is producing Suthen. No one is stopping you from fully participating in our intellectual national conversation that is Keeping up with the Kardashians.
When he’s done destroying civilization, I plan to let all those animals out of the zoos to repopulate.
Zoos in concept are not a bad thing. In execution they are a mixed bag. My small city had a “Zoo” when I was growing up. It was a sad and depressing place where single animals were locked in a small cage. They were pathetic and appeared traumatized. I’ve also been to larger safari like zoos that seem to be quite pleasant for the animals as they had large open spaces and at least some company.
This debate reminded me of this bit from the early 80’s RIP Jon Candy and Buck Henry.
Remember you too could be in a zoo some day………
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_S-fcg63l_I
Yeah, the OKC zoo would mix compatible species in multi-acre enclosures with appropriate plants .
If humans have natural innate rights that proceed government then animals must have similar innate natural rights. After all, humans are just animals. If “speech” is a natural right, because the ability to speak is innate and is a defining feature of man, then can “barking”, for example, be viewed as a dog’s natural right, as the ability to do so is both innate and a defining feature of a dog?
I tend to believe that animals do have natural rights and that it is a sin against the natural order of the world to restrict those rights. At the same time, man is dominant over animals and superior (unless you despise your own species and hold other species above it, which creates other inconsistencies) and therefore I’m not sure how enforcing said natural rights for animals can be done without restricting the natural rights of humans (via jail) for these ‘crimes’. The natural rights of animals must be inferior to the natural rights of humans and only enforced through violence in extreme situations of which I’m not sure of.
In natura, I think the mountain lion would have something to say about that. The reason we are dominant is precisely because we have the ability to build zoos and cage animals in them.
Cougars are frightening, mostly because you know that if you’ve been out hiking there is a good chance one has seen you, but your chance of seeing one is very slim…
Appropos: Devil Cat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCn2y1H51GY
Oh man, I’m going to sound like a complete yokel for saying this, but Lorne Greene’s music wasn’t all that bad. And Bonanza was one of the best television shows in American history.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bczfyoafHBk
I like a lot of Lorne Greene’s stuff. Also Marty Robbins.
You are me leon
Fun fact. I have indeed eaten at Rosas Cantina in El Paso…
I was pretty sure i would get shot while there.
My cat is named Felina for a reason…
Cougars are hot, brah.
Agree, 100 percent about why they are frightening. There is a big debate in NH over whether or not there is evidence they have returned to the state. I’m not taking any chances.
Not gonna lie… The author of the article sounds a bit like an Ass.
After spending literally years in the great outdoors in all seasons I have seen precisely one cougar and that was from a distance. Same with wolverines. Tracks aplenty but they are very secretive.
Everything about human evolution is about building a bigger brain to allow for more complex communication – from gestation period, to our extended-and-conspicuously-helpless infancy, our malformed lower back and auto-occluding air-way, its all to maximize brain volume. Its our only real evolutionary trick.
So yeah, if you take that way we’d be hamburger. But that’s like saying if you took away Tyson’s once-in-a-generation speed/power/aggression mix, he wouldn’t have been all that good at boxing.
I don’t disagree. I was pointing out why it’s a problem in this case to speak of “natural” rights and “natural” order, etc..
Evolution is not natural?
I didn’t understand your original point, so maybe I’m misunderstanding what you are saying now.
If we begin at the start of homo sapiens (which I don’t understand why that is necessary as the “natural rights” argument never extends back to ad absurdum) those early humans still possessed the natural ability to dominate animals, much as they possessed the “natural right” of speech, assembly, individual defense, etc.
Even if they had not yet achieved the ability to speak or fully defend themselves with guns, they still had the capability to develop such abilities. Much like a child still retains the ability to speak and therefore the natural right to speech, even if they cannot speak in a language that adults may understand. Similarly, just because we once developed spears to defend ourselves does not mean that we do not have the natural right to defend ourselves with guns. The innate ability is what defines a natural right, in my opinion. And yes, I attribute this to a natural order of the world.
Right, I don’t disagree. However, a mountain lion still has the innate ability to eat us in two bites. If we’re talking about natural rights as Locke, Hobbes, and Hume understood them, then we are talking about those rights that could and would be exercised in this imagined state of nature. As we had the ability to develop technology, but not yet had done so in the state of nature, we could not exercise any claimed right to dominate animals at that time. On the other hand, the mountain lion still had his claws and fangs.
So, what I’m saying is that because our technology is post-natura (from the perspective of social and political philosophy), I would disagree that we could claim domination of animals as a “natural” right as opposed to a necessary, de facto state of affairs.
Oh, strike my comment right below about Rawles and Nozick. This makes sense.
While the concept of evolution was present in Western civilization from the time of Aristotle, at least, we have to admit that Hobbes and Locke formulated and argued about the concept in a pre-Darwinian time. Natural law as a concept presumes a “state of nature” that pre-dates technology and society.
But Rawles and Nozick both knew that the State of Nature was an artificial construct, and I don’t think that automatically invalidates everything they wrote based on it.
Ah. Agreed. I didn’t mean to imply “state of nature”, as stated by Hobbes and Locke. Now I understand what you are saying.
The “state of nature” is fictitious. There never was such a pristine era. My argument is quasi-religious (sans deity). Only to suggest that a natural right is a right that one is born with and a defining characteristic of that species. And that these rights exist, because this is the natural order of the world. If invoking deity, the way that “God intended”.
Point taken.
We are the dominant species because we can communicate and work together. There are tribes that still have an annual hunt where they go fight a real fucking African lion. I forget how many, but certainly a dozen of the tribe’s strongest men and boys vying to become men. Do not kid yourself, our ability to fight together is what makes us the dominant species, it is not merely big brrains. We can also run and turn our torso as we run. So run in one direction and throw a spear at the same time. May not seem like much now, but it’s why we admire football QBs and pitchers. Being able to throw and then fashion tools to accelerate that?? Oh, fuck yeah. Now imagine 10-12 dudes who have been practicing slinging rocks and throwing spears.
Even the big kitties and some other large predators would rather not fuck with that noise.
And as HM points out, our ability to sweat allowed us to run animals to death. They wait by the water holes and when the animal gives up and moves to the next one they run them down in teams. Split up if they have to in order to cover the various options. Eventually by late in the day the animals just give up because of heat exhaustion. They run up and stab them while they’re lying in the shade.
It’s the combination of the brain and the body and how we use them together that allows us to dominate on land – and ocean if we wanted now. Not so much in the deeps of the oceans.
Out ability to fight together is a product of our big brains.
Depends on who you ask. I am sympathetic with Ayn Rand’s formulation of natural rights as not stemming from a state of nature but as a logical corollary of the fact that living things seek to continue their existence. That is, the purpose of life is to live. Thus, in order to live, a human being needs to secure certain things (food, water, shelter, etc.). All of these things require property rights.
As I linguist, I’ll point out that our ability to formulate highly complex plans, disseminate them, and then implement them (as well as adjusting on the fly) requires our highly complex ability of language. Again, I highly recommend Tomasello’s “Becoming Human” where he details this argument.
“I am sympathetic with Ayn Rand’s formulation of natural rights as not stemming from a state of nature but as a logical corollary of the fact that living things seek to continue their existence.”
It’s amazing how Rand and Aquinas can both claim Aristotle and come to different conclusions to justify their own version of natural rights.
Thanks for the link. I already agree with that proposition, but I might read the book.
I’m agreeing with you in a way that isn’t being communicated well.
It is exactly the ability to formulate, disseminate, and implement plans* that made us better at hunting and defending against animals. These abilities are a product of big brains. Therefore, we evolutionary sacrifice** all kinds of things to get big brains.
*Actually, we just need to be able to formulate/disseminate/implement faster than evolution generate emergent strategies among our competitors and prey. Its other bands of humans that are the real danger, since they too evolve tactics at the speed of mental innovation.
**Like for example our vocal cords are super awesome but we pay for them with the drawback that we can choke on our own food pretty easy.
I’d also add we do have a second evolutionary specialty. No animal can match hominids when it comes to long-distance, endurance running.
What about eating ass? I bet nothing in nature can beat us at that…
My dog eats its own ass half the day for fun.
I’m pretty sure Chimps get some….
Koala
You know who else where persistence hunters who moved long distances at about 5 miles an hour?
Wolves and dogs, as it happens.
I have a large saltwater aquarium and occasionally I come across people that say putting animals in this is wrong.
The thing about animals is that — although “happiness” is a human concept — the way zoologists usually determine animals are “happy” is if they are not outwardly stressed, have long life spans, etc. Very few animals desire “freedom”. There are a few that don’t do well in captivity: dolphins, sea turtles, etc. But most don’t show signs of misery in captivity.
The fish in my aquarium live about twice as long as they do in the wild and don’t fear predation so there’s that.
^^^^ ShitLord status confirmed.
*dons monocle*
I can only think of one fish I’ve owned that ever got bored. The rest are perfectly happy to swim in circles all day long assuming that their basic needs for space are met.
The bored fish? A dwarf puffer fish. He was in a 10g tank, and I wouldn’t keep one in less than 29 if I ever got another one. Super cool fish.
I voted for leon, I think Ozy conceded too much ground, I would have preferred a more hard line defense.
You know who else preferred a hard line defense?
Maginot?
Stormy Daniels ?
I voted for leon, I think Ozy conceded too much ground, I would have preferred a more hard line defense.
The way the passing game has opened up in the last 20 years, no team can afford to put all their resources in a hard line defense. Its all pass-rush and coverage now.
They can at least blitz once in a while. Ozy’s o-line is weak as shit.
This is a joke, obviously. I know that Ozy’s team is in the process of rebuilding and to be fair, leon’s center isn’t up to snuff.
We’re building through the draft.
/Says every team that sucks
In all seriousness, well thought out argument
So you voted for leon two times? Are you a dead Democrat?
You know the site is borked when a double post can occur.
Its a glitch in the Matrix!
You can say that again.
You guys are awesome. I really enjoy this series and I am also really glad I didn’t volunteer to participate. It appears that my normal debating strategy –
“OH YEAH?!?”
*drops gloves*
– would fall considerably short among You People.
Personally, I feel that some zoos are quite ethical. As Ozy and Suthen both noted, a lot of research is done in the good ones and yes, I think educating people about animals can help with conservation efforts.
Those road-side abominations, however, are disgusting.
Thanks, Q! This is a great addition!
http://archive.is/ApDxY
Woof.
Not your best effort, Q
How can you call yourself a Minnesodan, Tundra? So violent.
I would also suck at this. But I wouldn’t challenge people to fights. I’d just smile, say “That’s interesting” and then chat about the weather. That is how you properly do
passive aggressiveMinnesoda Nice.So, how is your garden doing in this cool weather?
Here in the burbs, the big conversation is about ice dams.
I eat meat. That said, I think the even animals raised for slaughter should be raised and killed as humanely as possible. I would define humanely as not causing unnecessary pain or misery. Rights are simply freedoms you have the power to demand.
I’m still waiting for the cow from the Restaurant at the End of the Universe.
Off topic, or maybe not . . . I’ve asked many people if they would rather be the canary living in the gilded cage looking out the window in the middle of January or the sparrow sitting in the tree looking back through the window.
I’ve had a couple of people choose the canary.
Trick question! I choose to be neither bird. Being a bird would suck. I mean, how could you beat off if you only had wings?
Better to be a duck I suppose.
I have heard that ducks get a lot of tail (NSFW).
OT: I am back in America! Sorry for Big Off Topic!
Not for long, but I’m here. Got a job with Lady back in Korea that starts in late February. Most of my documents are set to go so I feel pretty good. Except about one thing…
My memory and typing and cognitive abilities have lost not all of their edge, I wouldn’t say, but I definitely have bad moments, just like when a shortstop overthrows the first baseman. I would estimate that 85% of my brain and what it can do is same-ol’ same-ol’. But I do want to use this event as the moment when I turn my life around and start to really buck up and be the best, most ambitious, productive and worthwhile person that I know that I can ben.
So I have an odd an open-ended question: If you did turn your life around (mine isn’t sleeping in the gutter but I should be much more than I am I think, I am pretty much just a young boy who wants to have fun and not do anything of any real value)…how did you do it? How did you get your ass up and fight the system holding you down and make yourself into what you are? If you failed to do as such, there is no reason to answer why you could not if you don’t want to. My answer is that I did every drug imaginable for well over a decade, ceased to be an alcoholic about four weeks ago, and almost got my fucking head cut off. No worries if you don’t want to share. It’s awfully personal. My older brother lives a near fucking perfect life.
But I’m glad to be here and back and mostly ok. Most likely I will turn this into a longer post, but I just had to type this out now because I’m only on about day three of this mission.
Also note: I am curious and yet at the same time worried that my mental health will only decrease and will be visible to my new employers. This is one of my big driving factors.
“My older brother lives a near fucking perfect life”
Step 1: banish thinking like this.
There is no perfect life and if you think someone has it, one of your premises is wrong.
Step 2: Dwell upon death.
Not in a bad way mind you; just acknowledge that your life will end, and possibly a lot sooner than you think it will. The fact that you had a brush with death makes it easier for you.
Step 3: Given step 2, consciously prioritize what you want and where you want to be (big picture), then start taking incremental steps toward those goals.
Did you always want a Master’s degree? Take a class, then take another, etc. etc.
Did you always want a wife and children? Start arranging your life such that it’s a possibility; whether that means money and/or stability or whatever.
Step 4: Acknowledge that your plans are going to get fucked up and learn to roll with the punches.
Of course, take all of this with a boulder of salt. I’m just random dood (or doodette…) on the interwebz giving out free advice. You get what you pay for.
To add to this, remember you never know what’s going on inside someone’s head. It may look like perfection from the outside, while there’s pain and suffering going on in the inside.
Your hometown makes an excellent rye whiskey!
How I did it: I got my depression treated was the biggest starting point. After that, it is mainly a whoooole lot of self-reflection. Even with the drugs I’m still highly prone to apathy and immediate self-gratification, so I have to make use of those times when I’m motivated to actually do things like work out, eat better, etc. Making habits helps, as does near constant feedback (daily morning wiegh-ins, etc.)
“I am pretty much just a young boy who wants”
I stopped doing that and started “My son needs…, my wife needs….my family needs….people are counting on me”
“No we cant spend all of your inheritance. We dont need new guns, shoes, cars or vacations. You. are going to put that money in an annuity so that when I am gone and you need XYZ you will have it. You know that call that comes in the middle of the night? The one where you find out your son got arrested/in a car wreck/lost his job? The one where the baby needs surgery? That call is coming, you can count on it like the sunrise, and when it does you will be able to handle it so stop looking at the savings account like it is weekend beer money. It is not weekend beer money, it is security.”
I found that the stuff I want just piles up and gets rusty and covered with dust. I dont need more junk. I have done everything there is to do already, I dont need more adventure. Adventure usually means tears and an empty wallet. I am content doing a little woodworking, usually making something for my grandchildren, and laying down at night knowing my bills are paid and my family is safe.
That is how I did it. I grew up and realized everything is not about me. I get what I want when my family has what they need.
Sorry if that sounds like a harsh scold but that is the hard truth of it. You want stuff? So what, no one cares. Take care of your family and you will find out that all that stuff you want means jack-shit.
Word.
Nods….
That is how I did it. I grew up and realized everything is not about me. I get what I want when my family has what they need.
This is something I needed to hear today, brother.
I’ve really struggled with enjoyment of life for a couple of years. Helps to put that struggle in its place.
@Suthen: I admire and respect that mindset with a profoundness that is difficult to describe.
I think that’s where the difference largely comes for me. I don’t think (I’m still 32 so plenty of time to change my mind) I want a family. I don’t want a legacy or a clan to keep safe when in need. I want to be left alone. I’d rather have a good conversation than sex. I just want to be left alone. I don’t like getting or giving gifts. I’m more than happy to be friends with someone, but i really don’t feel the need to push it beyond that, with musical projects being an exception.
That sounds like the life a person who will end up being very lonely. But I’m not right now. I have never been, so far. Always had friends. Still a long way to go. I taught 300 kids at my old schools; like hell I want a personal one in my own home.
Something tells me a switch gets turned on when one actually has a child of their own.
Something tells me a switch gets turned on when one actually has a child of their own.
I can’t stand other people’s children. Mine, she’s good people.
What, in your life, is worth dying for? What would you lay down your life for right now?
That’s my personal definition of loneliness. Or nihilism. Or whatever you want to call it.
I had a friend in exactly the same place. One day he called me, half drunk and emotionally in a bad way.
“What is the point of it all?” he asked.
There isn’t a point. Why does life or the universe have to have a point outside of what is meaningful to us? The point is you either make the world a better place for others while you are here or because you leave here. You need meaning in your life? Find someone to care about and mean something to them. It isn’t more compplicated than that. Otherwise you will find yourself in a cold, dark, lonely place. Some people get into public service to help as many as possible (despite our grim view of public servants these people actually do exist), some people volunteer for whatever, some people become god-parents, some people get married or have children and so on.
You cant escape what you are no matter how independent minded you are, no matter how misanthropic you are still a member of the species and it is in our genes to mean something to others.
You know what I think when I build a piece of furniture? What I think when I plant 40 acres of timber? Long after I am dead someone will sit at this desk. My grandson will squirrel hunt and camp out with his son in this timber. I am leaving a mark on the world that will be around long after I am gone, a mark that will make other people’s lives better. At least that is my hope.
*I am sitting at a cherry desk right now that my grandfather got for me when I was 4 years old. He got matching desks for my brother and I. Every now and then when I sit here I look at the desk and remember where it came from. I even remember the day it was delivered and my grandfather explained to me what the desk was and that it would mean something more than a desk one day.
To mean something to yourself you have to mean something to others.
“You know what I think when I build a piece of furniture? What I think when I plant 40 acres of timber? Long after I am dead someone will sit at this desk. My grandson will squirrel hunt and camp out with his son in this timber. I am leaving a mark on the world that will be around long after I am gone, a mark that will make other people’s lives better. At least that is my hope.
—
To mean something to yourself you have to mean something to others.”
I thought this was lovely in an interesting way. Thing is I don’t want a legacy. I have absolutely no care about what people will think of me after I’m gone, as long as loved ones don’t have to suffer. Just let me die last. Which isn’t at all likely.
I find this odd because I find my happiness largely through history and I get weird feelings when I get to touch/hold/feel something old that used to belong to someone else. To get to use Rommel’s razor would cause ardent emotion, one way or another to anyone.
Meds are kicking in and I’m having an interesting cat’s cradle in my head of how I think about this subject within myself and how frequently the forceful focal points change. Thank you, all of you, for your interesting and germane thoughts.
Well-said, Suthen.
To echo this, I find maybe it is no that I am happier but at a minimum life is more tolerable if I ignore my own desires and needs and focus my energies on living my life for those whom I love, specifically my wife and kids.
Making as good of a life for them as I can gives my life purpose and meaning and whenever I think about myself and what I want or need it just makes me feel miserable at best and like a useless whiner at worst.
Evan, all the usual disclaimers apply, but I’m so glad to hear you’re doing as well as you are. Q has some solid advice, so I’ll pile on his No. 1 and add a few more of my own.
As others have noted, forget about what your brother is doing or has done or how he has lived his life; his life is uniquely his, yours is to be uniquely yours. If there are things about his life you ‘like,’ however, or would like to emulate, then hey! You’ve got an exemplar to help you! Presuming you both can handle that. But be sure you identify the correct things about his “way” of living that you favor; not the actual “things,” but the way in which he lives his life. Things come and go, but emulating habits is a great place to start.
Which piggybacks on what others have said: the Stoics were, IMO, 100% correct about virtue being achieved in the ‘doing.’ To wit, people use adjectives to describe themselves: ‘honest,’ ‘kind,’ or ‘sober’ (to use an example that might resonate with you), which is fine, but the Stoics would say that you can only answer that question by referencing your daily life and choosing to be truthful when even insignificant lies would go unnoticed, or choosing to be kind and magnanimous when anger would be socially acceptable, and yes, choosing not to drink every day for some time. There’s an important corresponding habit that is an absolute necessity, however, and it is Forgiveness – of the Self and Other Selves.
Finally, I’ve found meaning in the process of self-perfection, of attempting to become the best version of who we can be. It sounds hokey and New Agey, though I find it right in Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius, same as Eckhart Tolle or Anthony diMello. To be a little more concrete, I’m trying to learn piano – at 50. I will never be great – hell, I’ll likely be lucky to be even middling! – but I love the instrument. I always have. So I bent my life up to get a Yamaha keyboard, then steadily upgraded, took private lessons, and I’m almost four years in. I love the process – I don’t mind playing scales until my hands hurt. It’s a challenge; it’s partly a mental disorder, I think, but so what? I’m not worried about making money from it. Find things like that in your life.
I’m learning to garden, now. I grew up in the city. We have only .26 acres in the desert, but I’ll be damned, we can grow citrus, and we got some cheap garden beds and there are REAL EDIBLE FUCKING TOMATOES OUT THERE!!! It’s like magic. We put dirt in there, watered it a bit, and planted some seeds, and POOF! A few weeks later little shoots are coming up. Un-fucking-believable. A miracle that I seriously try to celebrate every day when I go outside and check them out.
Anyway, you’re doing great, friend. It’s all a gift, as you well know better than most. Don’t worry about what might be, celebrate what is.
Your hobbies sound like a lot of work. Have you tried picking up drinking instead?
I’m thinking some of the Glibs that homebrew might suggest that drinking is a lot of work as well.
Of course I’m the fool that winds up studying a language for 8 hours or more a week.
Legalább az emberek beszélnek az Ön nyelvén.
よくわかっている、私の仲間
That language has a kerning problem.
You essentially get three fonts in one!
I did that as a serious habit in my late teens, twenties, and into my thirties. I was a Marine helicopter pilot and I can assure you, without reservation and on my honor as an officer, we drank a fucking LOT. The O’Club at NAS Oceana, Virginia, had
strippers“dancers” at lunch when I was there in June of 1989. No bullshit. So yeah, I tested out my liver’s capacity for quite a good chunk of my life.But, a man grows… hopefully.
I just started getting into Stoicism in the past 2 months or so and I want to know where this has been my whole life. I’ve been doing a lot of the same sorts of things for a long time, and wish I had all these resources when I started…
Excellent advice Ozymandias.
I grew up on a farm and I still garden a bit. You cant get good tomatoes otherwise. Also, a couple of hours ago I ordered 10 paw-paw trees. We have quite a few growing on our land but the land is an hour away and I am too old to be humping through the woods with a shovel and pots of dirt so I just ordered them.
I guess I am growing them for fun because I will probably never get any fruit. The possums will come every night and check them. Half a second after they are ripe they will be gone.
“the Stoics would say that you can only answer that question by referencing your daily life and choosing to be truthful when even insignificant lies would go unnoticed, or choosing to be kind and magnanimous when anger would be socially acceptable”
Comment of the day, that one is. Also, this is why social signalers are invariably shitheads. They only do something to make a show. What you are talking about is often something that only the person who does it knows and that is good enough for them.
I take that back….comment of the week.
Learn the difference between a pleasant sensation and accomplishment. By your own admission, you are an unmarried, drug addled adult with nothing to live for and no-one who needs you. Stop doing that. I don’t mean walk into a bad marriage and save it with kids, but draw a picture of the life you want to live in 10 years, and work backwards. Then take each small step in that direction.
For me, that was a stable life – no more moving, a wife who actually supported me, kids who respected me, and peers who need me (aka the exact opposite of everything I had ever known). And also it was a stable personality – Someone who knew them self and was able to navigate his own personal demons.
Being an angry-at-the-world malcontent hurting himself to get a reaction from his family wasn’t working out too well for me. It wasn’t on that path I mentioned, so I put it down. I found things to believe in – ideas, not people. I started building things to care about. It was intentional. I made a choice. Nothing will happen if you (in the general sense) don’t decide to make it better.
And I stopped hating myself and my situation. I took affirmative steps to learn about myself and master myself. I did a lot of “walking through the fire” to get here, and I can’t put any of it into words, but I went from being a Veteran of a Thousand Psychic Wars to the Civil War Vet Living In The Western Ranch cliche. Not that I’m suggesting I ever participated in real military conflict, but that’s the closest archetype for what I did. In any case, it was intentional.
I couldn’t change how I felt or who I was before I changed who I acted like. And I couldn’t change what I acted like without intention.
Don’t want to be a drunk? Don’t want to be strung out? Ok. Its simple. Just don’t put those things in your body. Its not *easy* but nothing good can be had without a fight. If and when you fail, its a stumble. Get the fuck up and be a man and get back on the straight and narrow.
Do you have anything in your life worth dying for? It doesn’t sound like it. Ok, go build it.
Bullshit. “Everybody Hurts” is a cliche because its right.
The “you” here means me, not you or the general you. Especially that first paragraph. You may or may not be a “an unmarried, drug addled adult with nothing to live for and no-one who needs you” but that’s for you-actually-you to decide. Not me.
So much good advice from everyone. On point throughout.
I started building things to care about. It was intentional. I made a choice. Nothing will happen if you (in the general sense) don’t decide to make it better.
This is a really good one, Leap. Takes drive, work, and sacrifice.
Evan, are you staying in Indy? Email me if you want to meet up.
My older brother lives a near fucking perfect life.
On paper, my life is near perfect. High paying 45 hour per week job, fitness trainer wife, precocious kid that is very personable, decent house, decent paid for cars, living in a sought after area, plugged into a community at church.
In reality, I’ve struggled with enjoyment and happiness for a few years. I especially struggle with feeling trapped in a rut that I can’t shake out of. The loss of control is the hardest aspect to overcome, for me.
Video evidence of how miserable primates are in captivity.
I was expecting a cubicle farm
A local columnist today was opining about how few Minnesodans had gotten the RealID compliant driver’s licenses and how fucked they would be trying to fly or get into FedGov buildings. According to her a lot of people just can’t afford to get a passport so the RealID driver’s licenses are the only way for them to fully participate in society.
Which makes me ask: Why is asking for an ID to vote totes racist and bad, but forcing people to have on to fly or purchase a weapon not?
Why do you need an ID to enter a federal building?
Dude. You’ve never tried to go into a fed building to talk to a bureaucrat and had them ask you “what’s the big ID of you coming in here and bothering me?”
Oh yeah. When they tell me that i just say: “Paper’.. Please!”
If you can’t afford an ID, how are you affording a plane flight? Did she think through her position?
This sounds like an argument so stupid that the it sounds like an LP tweet
Because dead people can’t get ID so the anti-racism party’s most reliable voters would be barred if we ask for ID and the all racism all the time party would win elections.
regarding the “Vote”. Voting is part of the mythos of the Progressive Left. They latch on to things like the Voting Rights Act, womans suffurage and consider it the most important right you have in a democracy. This is in part because they are not inclined to think you have any rights beyond what everyone else votes on you having.
Its funny cause if you think about it the Vote is one of the least important rights we have.
Another thing that I thought of last week.
I’m sure all the antifa people who got the vapors when Trump threatened to attack cultural sites in Iran were so worked up that they had to take a break from tearing down statues of Civil War generals or renaming streets, buildings and lakes named after problematic people.
That’s bad culture….
You are joking, right?
Nick Sarwark: Anyone who doesn’t believe in forcing bakers to make cakes is just a right-wing social conservative
Clark County NV LP: Hold my tampon
https://twitter.com/LPCCNV/status/1217663446457540609
If you don’t believe in these specific social programs and goals, you are not a libertarian.
There are days I just want to hug you and squeeze you and call you George.
Henry George….?
Great man. Not given a fair shake.
*squints*
Not sure if serious…
That feed reads like a parody account driven by you if you had suddenly lost your sense of humor.
Hmm, lets see I am an Athiest, Pro Abortion, Mostly Pro Gay Marriage, Polyamorist who supports full drug legalization with no restrictions at all on production and possession and only age restrictions and warning labels on distribution for all drugs and I oppose forcing someone to bake a cake for any reason.
You were good until the last part of the last sentence. Nice try, paleolibertarian
I feel better about zoos that are giant and make sure the animals have enough space to not get stressed out in. I think though, that is a red herring.
The tendency to anthropomorphize animals makes us think that the animals are going to get bored and have a horrible life. For the most part, most animals are perfectly fine sitting around and sleeping as long as they are fed regularly. Even domesticated animals are like that. How much time per day does a dog or cat spend sleeping? A Lot.
This is not to say that putting animals in the old time zoo cages where they have almost no room and people are right on top of them is a good thing. I’m just saying that we probably over estimate the space that most animals need in a zoo.
Animals can and do get bored.
Mix them together, predators and prey. Keeps them from getting bored…
Would also lead to a huge increase in the amount of people going to zoos.
Sorry I don’t mean to imply that they don’t. I do think though that they aren’t nearly as susceptible to boredom as humans are. And that is me just pulling shit out of my ass based on my life of observing various critters. Please don’t ask me for any science to back that up.
That’s as may be, but the amount of destruction a bored dog can do while trying to entertain itself is right up there with a toddler. More than a toddler actually, unless you give the toddler a box cutter.
The book, The Life of Pi, has some good pro-side stuff… http://aaronautix.blogspot.com/2008/12/animals-in-captivity-life-of-pi-yann.html
How many zoos are economically sustainable as currently operated without government assistance?
Few, yet we have one here.
http://gonewildsafari.com
Double posting is for amateurs. Breaking the whole website takes skillz.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/as-if-they-were-working-to-prove-my-point/
In a plot twist, Kevin Williamson kind of sounds like an antisemite.
On the upside, National Review remains a trash magazine with maybe two writers worth reading once in a while.
I’m Pretty sure whoever uses more capital letters is right. Kevin must hate the jews.
DEMS DA RULES!
(ps: I just dominated you in that conversation. I’m sorry, but it had to be done.)
Concisely, are zoos ethical?
I do not believe zoos, per se, are unethical. It depends on the conditions and treatment of the beasts.
How much time per day does a dog or cat spend sleeping?
Almost as much as they spend plotting against you.
Oh, I could vote on this one!
Evan, I am glad you are doing as well as you are doing. I will re-read the thread.
For the others, Ozy, I stopped reading at Stoics.
I know who the Stoics are and what they taught. Firstly, I’m an artist and thus, not inclined to stoicism, although I have tried in the past. It was sheer torture. Secondly, I know I come across as very cold-hearted here in some of the things I say, but that is because I feel things too deeply, things that aren’t connected to me, and it hurts. It hurts for a long time. So I shut that part of me down. I have to be callous or I’m going to empathize with the whole world. Thirdly, sometimes stuff gets through.
Now, on to my question: When circumstances in your life demand that you DO SOMETHING, but you don’t know what to do, how does a Stoic determine the correct (or any) course of action? Doesn’t it involve much agony? What if it involves someone else and their choices, and worse, someone else who has zero life experience and is a minor?
I am asking because Mr. Mojeaux and I are in a really tight spot with our son. Things are not getting better.
How would a Stoic approach a decision where there is no good decision and/or he doesn’t know what decision to make?
I’m not a learned man (as is evident by my comments), but I feel as if, as a Christian, you would enjoy a lot of Stoic thought. Early Christianity was influenced by Stoic philosophy. I’m currently reading the apologias of Justin Martyr and he speaks highly of the Stoics. Even Stoic vocabulary and meaning (such as “logos”) was adopted by early Christians from the Stoics.
I do enjoy Stoic thought (what I’ve read of it). I was introduced to it through Tom Wolfe’s A Man in Full. I don’t know how to apply it to myself (an artist), much less to/with/about another person of whom I have stewardship.
I’m an illiterate idiot. Please ignore
Things are not getting better.
I’m really sorry to hear that Mojeaux, dealing with that and especially with a loved one is difficult. From my experience with this (the issue i think you are talking about) my thoughts are this. For me it helped to recognize that it might not get better. For me and my family especially it goes through swings of high’s and low’s, but i had to accept my loved on the way she is not the way i wish she could feel. Once i did that it wasn’t a resignation but it helped me switch from trying to “fix” the problem but rather be there during the low times to make sure we got back to the high times. It won’t be easy, but it is definatly easier, and I’ve found that it helps me not get depressed when we hit a low cause i know that my wife needs me and that she doesn’t need me to fix the situation, but be there for her. I can imagine that is especially difficult for a son who you know you will have to let go one day. Make sure that when he leaves he knows you are there and that when he gets married he marries a strong woman.
Hey, leon, could you email me? moriah at moriahjovan dot com
Thanks.
Sent
Answered, thanks.
I know this, becausa mah book lurnin. As a Stoic, you should already have a stable of Stoic philosophers or virtuous people you look up to. They can be real people or fictional/mythical. You should have selected them because they have the virtues that you wish to develop in yourself. You should have delineated those virtues specifically at some point already.
Now, you have questions:
1) If they were in this situation, what would they do? How does doing so align with the virtues that I have delineated?
2) I am going to propose an action. Giving my stable perfect knowledge of my situation (they know everything I know, they know my thoughts, they know nothing I do not know) what would they say if I did this action.
Use those two to guide your actions.
Stoicism is about 100% being concerned with your choices and having 100% equanimity (not apathy) about things that are not under your control (and the only thing under your control is your choices). You can ‘prefer’ things – health, wealth, happiness, etc. But you can only control your choices, so this is the only thing that you are placing importance on.
Your husband might fall down a well and die. You will have an involuntary period of grief – that is not under your control any more than pulling your hand away from a hot stove. But how you handle that grief once you get past the period of shock is of concern to the Stoic. Do you wallow in it, or do you handle it with grace and poise?
Is your newly-adult child moving out, shacking up with a hussy, and avoiding full time work? You can control your words to them. You can chose to cut them out of your life or support them financially? Do you keep inviting him to dinner and offering to help him find a job? Maybe. What are the virtues that you said you want to emulate? What would your Stoic Hero Action Team do? (this could go either way based on your preferred virtues).
You can prefer your husband were alive. You can prefer your kid marry or ditch the hussy and get a nice job at the paper mill milling paper 37.5 hours a week. But you are only truly concerned with your actions and ensuring they align with your virtues. This is *HARD* and *UNNATURAL* most of Stoicism is learning metacognative (how to think) practices to get to this place.
PS Many virtues are social in nature. Acting with Justice is a popular virtue. Building community is a virtue. Working to better the next generation is a virtue. We are talking about Greeks and Romans here. This isn’t a sect of Buddhism where its ok to hid out in the jungle and not be concerned with other humans.
Take “I know this, becausa mah book lurnin” to be a reminder from above where I said I’ve been reading about Stoicism for all of like 2 months.
Thank you. I can write out something like that.
That actually helps quite a bit.
Thank you.
First and foremost, by determining what is in their power to do. As this involves your son, a stoic would start by finding what decisions they can make and what is solely on the son to make. He is his own person, and cannot be fully controlled and as painful as it may be to see him make what you believe to be bad decisions they are his decisions to make. A stoic needs to focus on the things that are in their control, and accept those that are not.
Secondly, make decisions based on what is most virtuous. Not what feels best, not what has the best odds of a desirable outcome, not what you thinks others would want, not the path of least resistance.
Things may still get worse. Sometimes there is no good option, only marginally less bad ones. I wish I could point you to the balm in Gilead, but I can’t, especially in the context of stoicism. The main founder of the philosophy was a slave, it doesn’t teach how to live a good life, but how to survive a bad one. It won’t help you avoid pain but rather how to move on despite it.
I doubt that helps much, but hopefully it is a decent explainer of basic stoicism.
Marcus Aurelius was a dancer, a boxer, and a painter. Don’t sell yourself short.
Thanks, all.
I am printing this out to be able to refer back to it.
Start with what I feel is virtuous.
I would lean on what Caput said – and to be careful of using a shorthand like “start with what you ‘feel’ is virtuous. I always start with the “transcendents” – i.e. the transcendent values that I know to be True. Honesty and Truth over their opposites, Kindness and Mercy over Anger and Revenge, for example. All of this I try to “ladle” out of the endless pot of Love. Love will temper your sense of Justice with Mercy; Wisdom helps add some spine to Kindness that would otherwise be Enabling. Patience will help turn frivolous decisions into Prudence.
If I could offer a book to you that might seem quite a bit off topic to your question, get a copy of the Trivium (I prefer the “version” by Sister Miriam Joseph). There’s a link from the one I gave you to download it in pdf form. I think you might find in there some things that might make you rethink the tension you seem to feel there is between Stoicism and being an artist. It might also interest your son, as well as help you think about his education and yours.
Maybe not. But I find it a profound book far beyond the surface of what’s being taught.