Five Guns You Should Shoot I – Shotguns

by | Jun 15, 2020 | Fun, Guns, Outdoors, Products You Need | 348 comments

Five Shotguns You Should Shoot Before You Die

Every enthusiastic shooter and collector has a list of guns they want to own, or maybe just to shoot.  How to narrow it down?

Well, that is not easy.  But I have managed to narrow my recommended list of shotguns down to five.  So, without further ado, here are five shotguns you should shoot before you die, in no particular order.

Winchester Model 1897

This fine old pump-gun is the father of one of my Gold Standards, the Model 12.  So why recommend this gun, and not the Model 12?  Here’s why:

The Model 1897 (as a close follow-on to its predecessor, the black-powder-only Model 1893) was the first commercially manufactured pump-action shotgun.  A brainchild of John Browning, as were so many late 19th/20th century arms, the Model 97 was The Maestro’s choice for his own personal shotgun.  It was an unusual arm by today’s standards, with an open receiver, an external hammer and slam-fire capability.  This made the Winchester especially useful in the Great War, where it was issued in “trench-gun” configuration.  “Our Boys” used it with dispatch in clearing trenches, quickly discovering how a magazine full of 00 buck slam-fired down a trench could ruin a German soldier’s whole day.

But most of the million-plus Model 1897s made from 1897 to 1957 were used in the field, where the gun proved quick, handy, and easy to shoot.

So why is this one of the top five shotguns you should shoot before you die?  Because the Model 1897 is not like any gun made today.  The external hammer and lack of extraneous mechanical safeties makes it an easy gun to learn, and all the various Model 97s were made in an era where craftsmanship was still a thing.

Ignore the replicas.  Find or borrow an original Model 97 and learn the ins and outs of a pump-gun with an external hammer.  I think you will find it interesting.

Winchester Model 21

There are many, many fine side-by-side double shotguns.  So why recommend the Winchester Model 21?  Here’s why:

Built from 1930 to 1961, only about 30,000 Model 21s were ever built, making it the second-scarcest gun in the list, and certainly the most expensive.  Custom versions abound, as the Model 21 was a favored platform for engraving, inlays and costly custom stocks made of wood that induce salivation in fans of fine guns.  I have even seen a couple used as the basis for a custom double rifle, and once had the chance to handle a true one-of-a-kind, namely the only prototype Winchester ever produced of an aluminum-frame Model 21.

The Model 21 is much feted and much copied, but in 1930 when it was introduced it was a singular piece; a true carriage-trade double, made by a manufacturer who, in 1930, was a synonym for fine guns.  Now the timing could have been better, as Winchester’s introduction of their top-end double closely coincided with the introduction of the Great Depression.

But if you get the chance to handle and shoot one, take it.  The Model 21 is a fine piece, hand-fitted, superbly finished, furnished with great wood even in the field-grade versions.

Browning Auto-5/Remington 11

In this case a Gold Standard aligns with the top five shotguns you should shoot, although honestly for a Gold Standard on semi-auto shotguns, I’d have to call a tie between the Auto-5 and the Remington 1100.  But for the top five list, I must go with the Auto-5 or its cousin, the Remington 11.  Here’s why:

The Auto-5 was, like the previous two guns, a singular piece, worthy of Gold Standard status.  It did have some shortcomings; one was its use of a “friction ring” inside the forearm that had to be reversed for firing low-brass vs. high-brass shells, less damage to the action ensue.

The Browning Auto-5 has a long history, being built from 1902 to 1998.  From 1902 to 1940, Auto-5s were built at the FN works in Belgium; from 1940 to 1952 the Auto-5 production was done by Remington, as the FN plant was under German control.  From 1952 until 1998, production returned to Belgium.  Belgian-made Brownings have always commanded a premium, and while the Remington-made Auto-5s are fine guns, these “American Brownings” generally sell cheaper than FN guns.

Remington built the Model 11 under license from Browning, that gun being essentially a bargain-priced Auto-5 with no magazine cutoff.  These guns were made from 1905 to 1947.  Savage and Franchi also built their own licensed variants of the world’s first commercially sold semi-auto shotgun.

Pick up a Belgian Auto-5 sometime.  Pull the bolt handle back, press the release and feel the bolt go forward.  The actions are smooth, like oil on polished glass.  The 12-gauge Auto-5s are heavy but well balanced, and small frame guns like my beloved Sweet Sixteen are a joy to handle and shoot.  Try one.

Remington Model 32

Were I to pick a Gold Standard for over/under shotguns, I would probably pick the Browning Superposed, with the Remington Model 32 coming in a close second.  But when I consider an over-under for one of the top five shotguns you should shoot, I will pick the Model 32.  Here’s why:

While the Superposed was a fine piece and broke the over/under double platform out of fancy hand-made guns and into production, the Model 32 took the concept and made some significant changes.  But only about 5,100 guns were made during Big Green’s 1932-1944 production run, meaning that this gun surpasses the Model 21 as the scarcest gun on the list.  Examples for sale today, if they are in any kind of condition, command some fancy prices, very nearly in Model 21 territory.

But sometimes you get what you pay for.  The Model 32 was designed and built for competitive shooters, and with that in mind Remington did not have a central bridge connecting the barrels; instead, the barrels were separated by a short space, allowing cooling air to flow between the tubes.  With that and a ventilated rib, the Model 32 was made to run hot, and it quickly became a prized find for serious trap and skeet shooters.

You may have to go a long way to find a Model 32 these days.  A lot of them are in non-shooting collections.  If you get a chance to examine one, you’re certainly on the lucky side; I’ve only seen photos of them myself.  But you may have an easier time finding the Model 32’s offspring, the 3200, which shares many of its laudable features.  Check that one out.

Ithaca Model 37

Now here is a shotgun that looks like a little redundant, but I still think the Ithaca 37, especially in Featherweight trim, is a gun that rates a second and maybe even a third look.  Here’s why:

This presents another pump-gun on the list, but while the Model 97 Winchester is notable in its open frame and external hammer, the Model 37 – a linear descendent of the Remington Model 10 and Model 17 – is notable in being uniquely useful for both right and left-handed shooters.  The Model 37 not only loads through the bottom of the receiver, as do most modern pump-guns, but also ejects through the bottom of the receiver.  This means that left-handed shooters are not distracted by having spent cases sailing through their field of vision.

Another Browning design, the Model 37 was introduced in 1937 and is still in production today.  While being nicely suited to the southpaw shooter by dint of its bottom-ejection, it’s also a great upland bird gun due to its light weight, slim action (a shooter with big mitts like mine can easily carry a 37 with one hand wrapped all the way around the receiver) and fast handling.

I recently modified a 16-gauge Model 37 for Mrs. Animal, trimming the stock down to allow for her short arms and reducing the barrel to twenty-six inches.  Next it will get sent to Briley for choke tubes.  I have an unmodified 12-gauge Model 37 in the rack that I will eventually set up as an upland bird gun for myself.  I like handling and shooting them.  I think you will too.

In Conclusion

It has not escaped my notice that three of these five guns sprang from the mind of the DaVinci of Guns, John Browning.  This should come as no surprise to anyone who has 1) read any of my comments on guns in general, or B) knows anything about John Browning and his influence on gun-making in the 20th century.

At present I only own two of the five guns on this list and have handled and fired two (the 1897 Winchester and the Model 21 Winchester) of the others.  But there are still more spaces in the gun rack at the Casa de Animal, although the two doubles here may be out of my price range.

If you, like me, tend to spend a lot of time hanging around ranges and gun people, you are likely to bump into most of these pieces at some time or another.  (I recommend trap, skeet, and sporting clays ranges.)  If you get the chance to shoot one, grab it!

Next:  Rifles!

About The Author

Animal

Animal

Semi-notorious local political gadfly and general pain in the ass. I’m firmly convinced that the Earth and all its inhabitants were placed here for my personal amusement and entertainment, and I comport myself accordingly. Vote Animal/STEVE SMITH 2024!

348 Comments

  1. Naptown Bill

    I’ve got an 1897 I inherited that I haven’t had a chance to shoot yet. I actually had two, but one was in bad shape. I traded it to a friend for an unused Mosin and a couple cans of ammo. He sent it out to be restored and now uses it in cowboy action shooting competitions, so I feel like it’s found a good home.

  2. Don Escaped any Landslide

    zero objections

  3. BakedPenguin

    The first gun I ever bought was a J.C. Higgins model 20. Good gun, especially for the price.

    • Drake

      Also related – all the Bushes fucking suck.

      • Chipwooder

        That goes without saying.

      • Drake

        Just getting to the root cause.

      • Ownbestenemy

        We are gonna have to dig deeper to find the root causes.

      • Ted S.

        Even Kate?

      • Drake

        She had 1 good song.

  4. UnCivilServant

    I’m not made out of money, how am I supposed to take a listicle like this seriously when it’s objective is unrealistic.

  5. DEG

    But there are still more spaces in the gun rack at the Casa de Animal

    Excellent.

    • Animal

      And when I run out of spaces, I buy more racks.

    • R C Dean

      I may sell a couple of guns, and not to make room for more (there are still a few empty slots in the safe).

      The Ruger 22-250. I got it as a coyote gun, but just don’t see ever shooting it again. Better it go to someone who will shoot it.

      Maybe the T/C blackpowder gun. Again, don’t see ever shooting it again, but might just get a new barrel for it. Probably .308. Its a handy little thing that would make a good deer gun, and would be a real alternative to the Deerminator .300 Win Mag, which, while stupid accurate, is not handy at all.

      • Francisco d'Anconia

        NEVER, NEVER, NEVER sell a gun or a fly rod. You WILL regret it! (Buy another safe, if you must)

        That is all!

      • R C Dean

        This is more about “getting the guns to someone who will use them.”

        My fly rods are safe, BTW.

      • Animal

        Years ago a friend of mine tried to teach me how to use a fly rod. After he commented that I looked like “…an old lady trying to kill a bat with a broomstick” I went back to my spinning tackle.

      • EvilSheldon

        I’ve never regretted selling a single gun I’ve sold.

  6. Not Adahn

    At the multi-gun event, someone showed up with a Belgian Auto-5. I was jelly.

  7. juris imprudent

    My dad had an Auto-5, though I was too young to shoot it before it was stolen.

  8. Chipwooder

    I do wish I knew someone who owned an 1897,

    • Suthenboy

      Sadly the steel ini the barrel of those is soft. Most ’97s have worn down until the barrel is paper thin.
      One came up for sale locally recently. It had been re-blued beautifully and had high-end walnut replacement stocks but the barrel was so thin I would be afraid to shoot it so it was just a wall hanger.

      • Animal

        Most ’97s and most Model 12s had very thin barrel walls to begin with. I’ve had a couple of Model 12s cut for choke tubes, a 12 and a 16, and nobody but Briley will even touch the job. And boy are those tubes thin.

      • I'm Here To Help

        I have a model 12 that looks like it’s been fired a half dozen or so times since it was made in the early ’20s. Absolute pristine shape!

      • Animal

        Uh, details? Maybe a photo? If you can post a serial number (feel free to leave off the last 2 digits) I can look up some details for you.

  9. Ownbestenemy

    The boys enjoy shooting the shotgun, well, one boy does. The other is a rifleman like me. He will shoot with the shotgun and a handgun, but is most comfortable with a rifle. Await more of this series!

    • R C Dean

      The boys enjoy shooting the shotgun, well, one boy does.

      I’m a 50% shotgunner:

      Going away, no problem.
      Coming toward, miss.
      Right to left, no problem.
      Left to right, miss.

      • Francisco d'Anconia

        Coming toward, miss.

        Everybody misses that shot. Your best bet, if the bird is flying at you, is to simply turn around and shoot it going away.

      • UnCivilServant

        *thwack, bird hits the back of Fd’A’s head*

  10. Suthenboy

    I have two Ithaca 37s. One with the corn cob, one without. They both have full chokes and shoot like rifles. You cant duck hunt with them. Even out to 40/50 yards they shred ducks beyond recognition. The chokes are ridiculously effective.
    Looking at the Ithaca website I may have to make more investments.
    *wipes slobber off of chin*

    https://ithacagun.com/product/model-37-featherlight/

    • Animal

      It’s amazing how John Browning’s designs have stood the test of time, isn’t it?

      • Suthenboy

        *kneels, bows head*

        God bless John Browning.

      • Gustave Lytton

        Amen. John Moses Browning led the firearms world out of the wilderness and into the promised land.

  11. R C Dean

    I was leaning that way, but have now committed to getting a Benelli M-4. The options for making my 1100 more of a combat shotgun were disappointing. It has a long barrel, anyway (which I don’t want in a gun that may be deployed indoors), and by the time I replaced the barrel blah blah I was getting closer to what the Benelli will cost me anyway. SCOTUS showing zero interest in protecting gun rights or reining in QI cemented my decision – the former means “buy it while you can”, and the latter means “the current flashpoint for civil unrest will remain in place”.

    Got my case of Federal LE 00 shells this weekend. It was like a perfect storm of “fuck it, spend the money”.

    • Suthenboy

      I was never much of a Mossberg fan. They aren’t high-end, but they are solid guns.
      Lately I have been leaning towards this as a self-defense bedside gun. The main drawback on shotguns is reload time and a box magazine fixes that problem.

      https://www.mossberg.com/product/590m-mag-fed-pump-action-50206/

      • juris imprudent

        Got to love the California Prop. 65 warning. What a fucktardium that state is.

      • R C Dean

        As we’ve discussed before, I’m semi-auto 4 lyfe due to my lack of reps with pump-action shotguns, and the astounding reliability of semi-auto shotguns. In spite of the financial damage inflicted by the lockdowns, I’m not feeling like I need to save the money by going pump-action or otherwise compromising on my personal preference.

      • Suthenboy

        I have a semi-auto, box fed shotgun. It is very picky about its diet but I have stocked up on its preferred fare. I have more confidence in the pump action than the auto and the Mossy crosses that divide for me…pump and box mag. I may buy the thing and hate it, I dunno. If that is the case I will go back with what I have now.

        “…lack of reps with pump-action shotguns…”

        I don’t follow. Reps? I have a Remington 870, Ithaca 37s, BPS, and Winchester SPX. I have never had any problems with any of them.

      • R C Dean

        My repetitions in shooting a pump action. As an 1100 guy my whole life, I haven’t shot them much, and don’t have the muscle memory/confidence in my ability to pump correctly in a high-stress situation. I trust the semi-auto machine more than my flabby reactions in a high-stress situation. If I had the same thousands of shots through a pump as I do through a semi-auto, I’d probably feel differently about it.

      • Not Adahn

        Practice time.

      • Bobarian LMD

        I assumed he meant practice?

        The learning curve on a pump gun ain’t really that bad.

        Best practice I found was shooting doubles on trap, while reloading.

      • Drake

        I’m getting a Beretta 1301 when the money starts coming in again. Semi auto, not quite as spendy as the Benelli.

      • EvilSheldon

        I see enough people short-stroking and otherwise fucking up the operation of their pump guns, that I also much prefer the semi-auto life.

      • Yusef drives a Kia

        I got one right now, talk about a spooky piece, the look of it will scare people,
        also 20 round mag, for the win!
        /I have a 10 rd. as well

      • Suthenboy

        Yes Sir, you are the one that put me on to it.

      • Yusef drives a Kia

        Ozy is who i thank, but yes, very well balanced mag placement, no matter the mag size,
        no jams or slowdowns,

      • UnCivilServant

        When they put that combination in muskets it was “Buck and Ball” It was one of many things the redcoats were not particularly happy about the colonials doing.

      • Incentives Matter

        I’m looking at .410s strictly for, ahem, “civil unrest,” and that is the precise ammo I want to load in them.

      • Mojeaux

        I had an ancient .410 I recently (within the last 6 months) sold. I had never shot it.

      • UnCivilServant

        I had never shot it.

        There’s the real tragedy.

      • Incentives Matter

        I had an ancient .410 I recently (within the last 6 months) sold. I had never shot it.

        My Mom was actually a very good shot, and she had a .410 (can’t remember what it was — I was but a wee lad at the time) that she later had to sell due to some financial difficulties following my parents’ divorce. She loved that shottie, and always regretted selling it.

      • Ozymandias

        That’s what I have, Suthen. But not the Shockwave – I have the shoulder-fired version. I like it.
        I’ve put some 00 and slug through it, doing full mags on several occasions to see what it feels like. You’ll know it – and I don’t have skinny shoulders. I can’t imagine you’d need much more than that if push comes to shove. It’s a combat shotgun, though it’s not an M4. I’m very curious now about the Auto5 and the Model 97.
        Re: the Roberts link, what a complete piece of shit that guy is. I truly believe someone has something on him. Let’s put it this way: so far, it’s a wonderfully predictive operating hypothesis.

    • Not Adahn

      Look at Mr moneybags here with his Benelli. I had to settle for a Stoeger for my competition shotgun. I was strongly advised to go inertial over gas, and while my CZ1012 shoots great, nobody does the modifications to it (opening up the loading port, extending the lifter, extending the mag tube, etc) that make life easier. I can dual-load the CZ, but I rip off my thumbnail doing so. The Stoeger loads much faster, but there’s not as much drop on it as I’d like (or as the CZ has).

      • Suthenboy

        Dr. Dean was instrumental in ridding an entire state of Certificates of Need. As far as I am concerned he is woefully underpaid.

      • EvilSheldon

        Stoegers turned out to be damn nice guns, especially for the money.

        I’m pretty much retired from 3gun at this point, so I’m trying to figure out what to do with two 21″ Benelli M2s and an RCI Browning A5. It just irks me to have guns sitting around not being used…

  12. leon

    Shotguns are too much fun to shoot, I find it much more enjoyable than rifle shooting.

    But all shooting is fun.

    • UnCivilServant

      “What was that sound like someone tearing the space-time contiuum a new asshole?”

      “My new gun.”

      “Which is?”

      “A Quad-Gatling Shotgun: Twenty-four barrels of fun firing twelve thousand rounds of twelve guage per minute.”

      “So what’s the shipping container is for.”

      “That’s the ammo hopper.”

      • R C Dean

        twelve thousand rounds of twelve guage per minute

        *does math, sees five figures worth of 00 pellets downrange per minute, places order*

      • Scruffy Nerfherder

        Claymores are cheaper

      • Viking1865

        Been rereading Stephen Hunters books. At the end of one of them the bad guy is doing Villainous Gloating. and asks if Swagger has any last words before they kill him. Swagger says “Yeah. Front Toward Enemy.”

      • Bobarian LMD

        Claymores are cheaper

        And probably not a lot harder on you when firing from the shoulder.

      • mexican sharpshooter

        You may want to consider investIng in a cannon and grape shot, might save a few bucks.

      • UnCivilServant

        That’s a different kind of fun.

    • R C Dean

      But all shooting is fun.

      I was watching a World of Weapons ep just last night on “Weapons for the Common Man” or somesuch. Very interesting; they took totally untrained people and got them to an adequate level of proficiency with pikes, crossbows, and AK-47s very quickly.

      When he gave the AK to the young woman who had never shot a gun before, I knew how it was going to end. A few minutes of coaching, then he let her shoot down range. A couple of three shot bursts, and then she went rock and roll on full auto.

      Huge smile when she gave the gun back. It never fails.

      • leon

        I was watching a World of Weapons ep just last night on “Weapons for the Common Man” or somesuch. Very interesting; they took totally untrained people and got them to an adequate level of proficiency with pikes, crossbows, and AK-47s very quickly.

        One of the reasons (allegedly) that the Pope “banned” crossbows, was it’s ease of use and its incredibly deadly effect, allowing mere peasants to kill nobles

      • R C Dean

        Its an interesting show. Nat Geo, I think.

        A relatively early/low powered crossbow easily penetrated chain mail. As I recall, a later/more powerful crossbow couldn’t get through plate armor. Disclaimer: I was well into my nightcap and minutes from bed, so recollection may not be entirely accurate.

      • Ozymandias

        I have a one-handed crossbow. You basically crack it open to “cock the bow” – pull the wire back. It fires a metal bolt and I sure as fuck wouldn’t want to get shot with it. That one is tucked away in my closet for “if shit really goes bad.” And yes, the English longbow began the era of peasant can smoke nobility (armored and mounted knights). Given the costs of manufacturing and maintaining armor, which also required horses, being a knight was absolutely a prerogative of the nobility. It was almost like having a tank.
        Longbows – and then crossbows – upend that entire calculus. And keep in mind, it simultaneously upends the economics of warfare around it, too. If you spend fuckloads on knights and their shit and horses and a squad of guys with crossbows and longbows can wipe out a company of them – at distance in the open. Well, now the whole fucking order is undone.

      • Francisco d'Anconia

        Such is the nature of warfare.

      • Viking1865

        I will assert that the firearm, more so than the printing press, is responsible for the spread of liberty and equality over the word. Obviously the printing press was vital, but you’ll go farther with a kind word and a gun than a word alone.

      • wdalasio

        I think you’re close. It was the advent of relatively inexpensive firearm that was responsible for the spread of liberty and equality over the word. A world where an average Joe is as likely to be armed as the agent of the state is a boon for liberty.

      • Chipwooder

        “God made men, but Col. Colt made them equal.”

      • Incentives Matter

        Reminds me of when I was in Air Cadets. The summer camps at various Canadian Forces Bases were endlessly amusing that way. Many female cadets who were scared of rifles and full-auto weapons turned into raging Rambos by the end of their field or range courses.

    • Not Adahn

      Shotguns are too much fun to shoot, I find it much more enjoyable than rifle shooting.

      And how. I’ve only been to one practical shooting match with a shotgun, but I didn’t stop grinning for days afterward. Clearing a plate rack with one is hilarious. I also learned that if it’s multi-gun even, start with the shotgun first if possible, the transition between firearms is much easier that way.

  13. Scruffy Nerfherder

    Apropos of nothing

    Real shotgunning

    • Suthenboy

      That is some euphemism.

      *types in eyebleach.com*

  14. Bobarian LMD

    My brother has my Dad’s old Ithaca Featherlight special edition (with scrimshaws and engraving of a hunting scene). He shot it so much that he wore down and broke the feed pawl.

    I fired skeet as a Boy-Scout using an old Winchester side by side, but I have no idea what model it was.

    Fired and almost bought an old Auto 5, probably 30 years ago, still covet that gun.

    I’ve never fired any over-under gun, less my Stevens .22/.410, but I’ve also coveted some examples.

    And I’ve only ever seen the trench gun in a museum.

    • Suthenboy

      I have the A-5.

      Browning makes a new, improved version. Get the new one. The old model was fantastic for its time but the new one is better.

      • Bobarian LMD

        $15 to $18 hundred? They ain’t cheap.

        I was gonna get that gun for $250. But I couldn’t quite afford that then.

      • EvilSheldon

        The new A5 is awesome. Browning ‘borrowed’ the inertial operation of the Benelli M1/M2, back-bored the barrels from the factory, then added the floating 2-piece shell lifter from the original Auto-5. You run the A5 dry, the bolt locks back, you start stuffing shells into the magazine tube and the first shell just magically teleports itself into the chamber. Great guns.

  15. Gustave Lytton

    Model 37 DS Police Special is on my longtime wish list.

  16. bacon-magic

    My Dad had a Winchester model 12…wish he’d never sold it. He used to work at Olin-Winchester in the shotgun shell production line and was there when they went from paper to plastic shells.

  17. LJW

    I mentioned a while back. My uncle is giving me my great grandfathers WWI era 1897. I know my great grandfather served in the Great War. Not sure if he kept his shotgun from the war or bought it after the war. From my understanding they were pretty strict on returning firearms after the war, so I’m guessing he bought it after. I was supposed to get the gun a while back but unforseen circumstances delayed it.

  18. Scruffy Nerfherder

    My Remington 1100 was a gift for my 13th birthday. Dad has it at his farm since I couldn’t take it with me to Californistan back in 94.

    My home defense shotgun is a Mossberg Shockwave 12. I also have a Mossberg pump 410 that is great for a variety of purposes.

  19. Rothbardsbitch

    Wow the Supreme Court just once again blatantly rewrote federal law because of their own personal beliefs and preferences again.

    https://apnews.com/ef3c19a79b65c060fd9e82b9dd87a1d9

    https://apnews.com/ef3c19a79b65c060fd9e82b9dd87a1d9

    Justices rule LGBT people protected from job discrimination

    So now the Christian bakery owner has to hire the gay couple and bake them their wedding cake.

    Disclaimer: Discriminating based on sexual orientation is not something I would do but you should be allowed to be bigot in a free country and not be forced to violate your belief system.

    • leon

      Don’t worry, because they also refused to take up any cases to 1) make sure you have the right to defend yourself, nor 2) make sure the people who violate your constitutional rights are prosecuted.

    • R C Dean

      I’m wondering about the knock-on effects of the sex discrimination decision.

      It kills, of course, any attempt to keep trannies out of women’s sports.

      It may require that health insurance cover transitioning (which has traditionally not been covered as not “medically necessary”, although I’m not sure if it has started being treated as a covered service more recently).

      It (functionally) adds a requirement that you have a certain percentage of gays and trannies on your workforce. Amusingly, I’m pretty sure you’re not allowed to ask about gender identity or sexual preference as part of the hiring process.

      • Urthona

        I think it will do none of that.

      • Mojeaux

        What it will do is raise the number of discrimination lawsuits in hiring and firing.

      • Ownbestenemy

        I think the firing part yes, hiring will still be hard to prove. Didn’t meet qualifications is hard to beat as long as you aren’t publicly out saying you will never hire a gay/trans person.

      • blackjack

        Yeah, it’ll just enable gay people to sue when they get fired and thereby raise the price of everything everyone else buys. And make it more likely they never get hired in the first place.

      • Mojeaux

        And make it more likely they never get hired in the first place.

        Your gaydar would have to be pretty finely tuned during the interview process.

      • Viking1865

        Not if they have social media.

      • Mojeaux

        Oh, true. I assumed people would be more careful when applying and interviewing for jobs.

        Me, IRL, has no social media at all and a deep search of Usenet would not yield anything. A search for my real name would get you pages and pages of a Victorian household management guru and a councilwoman in Texas.

      • UnCivilServant

        I assumed people would be more careful when applying and interviewing for jobs.

        Even with my limited experience as an interviewer, I can tell you this is not the case – and we don’t even do social media checks.

      • Viking1865

        “Oh, true. I assumed people would be more careful when applying and interviewing for jobs.”

        They’ve been praised their entire lives if they have wacky and zany leftist politics.

        If I was hiring, I’d hire exclusively Non Woke people.

      • DEG

        Even with my limited experience as an interviewer, I can tell you this is not the case – and we don’t even do social media checks.

        If a candidate puts social media information or a website on his/her resume, I’ll take a look at it.

        Otherwise, it’s been rare for any group I’ve worked with to look into a candidates’ social media “stuff”.

        On the other hand, I know of former coworkers that have searched for candidates’ social media which was not on a resume, and decided against those candidates based on what they found.

      • UnCivilServant

        If you’re fey, flaming, or soy, your employment prospects have gone down.

      • bacon-magic

        Oh, true. I assumed people would be more careful when applying and interviewing for jobs.

        Have you seen social media lately? The dirty laundry is being aired with abandon.

      • Urthona

        I don’t think there was really discrimination against gays in this way anyway, except in the rarest of circumstances.

      • R C Dean

        Why not, Urthona? I think its a pretty straightforward application of the de facto amendment of the anti-discrimination laws to add “sexual preference or gender identity”.

    • Ownbestenemy

      Did I miss the part about hiring in the ruling?

      • UnCivilServant

        They redefined the word “sex” for the purposes of the statute, thus any element of the statute relying upon that is impacted.

  20. Not Adahn

    I had an odd dream last night: Someone with a shotgun broke into my garage, stole my clays and my thrower and started shooting trap in my front yard. I spent the rest of the dream puzzling whether or not I needed to call out to the guy or if I should just shoot him with the bedroom shotgun. Of course that was a dream, IRL a rifle would have been a much better choice at that range.

    • Suthenboy

      Or you could have just brought some beer out and shot with him.

      /I dont have anyone to shoot with anymore

      • Not Adahn

        My nosy neighbor lady would have already called the cops on him.

    • PieInTheSky

      if that is an odd dream you don’t really have odd dreams 🙂

      Also traps with another dude are gay

      • Not Adahn

        What about Five Stand?

      • PieInTheSky

        with that ponytail? could be

      • Bobarian LMD

        Only skeet is gay.

      • EvilSheldon

        Skeet shooters do it twenty-five times in eight different positions.

        (T-shirt seen at Bull Run sporting clays)

  21. Suthenboy

    Wildly off topic: I have been stewing lately about morality/Economics and how that effects culture.
    It hit me just now that the way we see morality today, the source and motivation for it ( well being of individuals) is very different from how we saw it in the past (prescribed primarily for the sake of society)

    Do I have this wrong? Anyone want to weigh in?

    • PieInTheSky

      do you mean effects or affects?

      • Suthenboy

        Yes.

        I am half-drunk. Give me a break.

        Clays with other guys arent gay unless you are slapping asses the way athletes do.

    • Not Adahn

      I wish you were correct, but I believe you’re wrong. The relatively small number of individuals who frequent glibertarians.com may see things that way, but all “important” people are collectivists who establish programs based on “communities.” And even among glibs, we see consequentialist libertarians who think that glibertarian ideals would lead to a better society.

      • PieInTheSky

        And even among glibs, we see consequentialist libertarians – yes but we ignore those people.

        humans are two categories: power hungry and useful idiots. Collectivism convinces the later to give power to the former.

      • Suthenboy

        Three. You left out the ‘leave me the fuck alone’ people.

      • PieInTheSky

        like actual intersex people, those are so few they are negligible

      • Gender Traitor

        Just curious – what do you mean when you say glibertarian ideals (differentiated from libertarian ideals?)

      • PieInTheSky

        more beers, fewer appletinis?

      • Not Adahn

        Many of the thinkers so valuable to libertarianism disliked buttsex.

    • blackjack

      How is Marxism beneficial to individuals? The institutions switched from promoting individual responsibility to collective guilt. It’s all collectivism all the time now.

      • Suthenboy

        I get that there is a strong effort now to revert to collectivism but I dont think it is the way the tide is turning. I think it is a backlash against the turning tide.
        That may be just my inner optimist.

      • blackjack

        Like I said before, all of this is about indicting the system. They rejoice when a black guy gets killed or someone has their rights violated, because it’s another dent in the machine. I have no optimism at all. These people literally want the whole country to explode so we can start the new soviet state here. They are actually even lighting the fuses as we speak.

      • Suthenboy

        I see the same thing but I am optimistic enough to believe they will fail.

      • Plisade

        Agreed.

      • Heroic Mulatto

        revert to collectivism

        Revert?

        You are drinking the good shit! You could have at least send some my way to share.

    • Rothbardsbitch

      You are right. It isn’t fully one or the other at this point though. A big part of this is the left does not have a consistent ideological basis for morality. In some cases its about the rights of the individual like (gay marriage) in some cases its about the greater good of society (in liberal minds the greater good means no individual gun rights). Make no mistake conservatives are no longer in the pilot or the copilot seat of culture anymore.

      • blackjack

        No. Every one of these campaigns has, at it’s core, the goal of tearing asunder all that came before. Individual rights that are enhanced are accidental. The real goal is indicting America as hateful. The end game is Marxism, not individual rights for any one group.

      • RAHeinlein

        Yes, Marxism on a global scale. No accident that the same narratives are playing-out all around the world – white supremacy, racism, inequality. They may ultimately veil change in “let the world vote democracy” but definitely a Marxist derivative.

      • whiz

        Hey RAH, I was in the north Walmart today by the deli area — does your son wear glasses and a blue, patterned bandana?

      • RAHeinlein

        No – that wasn’t him. He generally works mornings Tues-Fri – tall, lean, blonde, first name starts with a “J”

      • Suthenboy

        Conservatives are no longer pilot of co-pilot because they did a shitty, shitty job of it when they were.

      • Francisco d'Anconia

        A big part of this is the left does not have a consistent ideological basis for morality.

        Nor does the right. Nor do most libertarians.

        And without a core principle of right and wrong, you are left with an inconsistent mass of screaming idiots. They have nothing to trace their decisions back to and they, therefor, make decisions based upon feelz.

    • Don Escaped any Landslide

      Do you mean: Did we once have the right/duty to kill one guy to save a million, but we now no longer do?

    • PieInTheSky

      i would say though it is sold as a different type of collectivism then the old clan based stuff… It is not the individual does not mater and sacrifices for the group as much as the group should provide an individual with whatever free shit. But the end is the same, a few on top deciding what the common good is and who gets what irrespective of contribution.

      • PieInTheSky

        I sometimes wonder if the goal is not something like the palatial economies efore the bronze age collapse.

      • Suthenboy

        Don: Not sure, that is why I am asking you lot.

        Pie: Maybe I suffer from looking at it too close but yes, it seems to me that the top-down decision makers dont have as much authority as they formerly did.
        I think we may be approaching a libertarian moment in an asymptotic fashion.
        I am a little fearful of getting out of this bubble because it might be too depressing.
        If only we could peek into the future a couple of hundred years from now.

      • PieInTheSky

        it seems to me that the top-down decision makers dont have as much authority as they formerly did. – I don’t really see that… I seen no great relinquishing of power from the center.

  22. Suthenboy

    Dream gun: Dakota 76 Traveler with three barrels – 7mm Remington Magnum, 338 Winchester Magnum and 458 Winchester Magnum.

    Dream shotgun: Browning Citori Deluxe with 4 sets of barrels – 410, 28, 20 and 12 gauges.

    If I could only have two guns that would be them. What the hell, that is only about $50K worth of guns.

    • PieInTheSky

      there was this large game double barrel bolt action thing on forgotten weapons that looked nice.

  23. Chipwooder

    I’m a Remington 870 owner. Dirt cheap and reliable. I’ve fired nicer shotguns but none so wonderful that I want to pay 2-3-4 times as much as the $250 I paid for it.

    • blackjack

      I have a Fox FA-1 semi auto. It’s a cheap knockoff, but I got it for less than free, so I don’t complain. I really need to start collecting more shotguns, but it’s so onerous to buy them around here, especially now that the lefties are all at the shops learning what they’re “reasonable restrictions” look like in practice.

    • Not Adahn

      I have the same mental hangup. Prices that seem reasonable for a handgun outrage me if they’re on a shotgun. I feel the same irrational price sensitivity with Scotch v. Rye.

      • Sean

        I have the same mental hangup.

        #metoo

        I’m quite happy with a $300 shotgun, but will spend much more than that on a pistol.

        My S&W 1000 is a soft shooter and fun to break clays with.

      • UnCivilServant

        If a scotch or rye costs as much as a handgun, I’d find that price outrageous too.

      • Not Adahn

        Well, not when you’re buying by the barrel.

      • Not Adahn

        A better joke would have been “case.”

      • UnCivilServant

        So, you’re saying a pistol barrel full of one should cost as much as a shotgun barrel full of the other?

      • Not Adahn

        That’s a little extreme, though not impossible. There are Scotches that cost 20x of a Rye. But it would have to be an extremely cheap rye.

        20” 12ga barrel ~140mL
        4″ 9mm barrel ~ 6.5mL

  24. robc

    Thought: Build fence around CHAZ, put in border patrol. Require passports to get back into US (sure they are mostly US citizens there, but I bet they didnt think to bring their passport with them – so they can wait until someone outside cares enough to mail it to them).

    • Ownbestenemy

      Once the mail is delivered, who is going to distribute it? How do you even address it so the USPS will go there? You are also assuming persons have passports. American’s don’t generally have passports, but it is near Canada so maybe.

      I am all for the first part though. You want it, fine, have at it but no city services will be provided (I know, Seattle and Wash actually support them) unless you agree to meet and come to terms with power/water/sewer access and the costs that go with that. Also, since you no longer recognize the United States or the State of Washington, please be aware that police/fire will protect their side of the border, but to use their services, along with EMT service, we have to negotiate that also.

      Sorry we don’t take lettuce or kale as payment.

      • robc

        If you left the country without a passport, not my problem. I guess you won’t be coming back.

      • Don Escaped any Landslide

        If you left the country

        some guys from Iowa will come down, shoot you, burn your crops and town

        / some guys I’ll be buried next to

      • Heroic Mulatto

        If you left the country without a passport, not my problem. I guess you won’t be coming back.

        Nguyen v. INS says otherwise.

        Also, if we establish border protection around the CHAZ, we are de facto, if not de jure legitimizing their succession. I just say leave them alone, but I’m admittedly not very good with the whole “owning the libs” thing.

      • leon

        And here i was wondering how they were going to get their mail if the Mailmen can’t get there.

      • blackjack

        It worked at Alcatraz.

      • Heroic Mulatto

        If you look at the result, AIM and the other activists basically won.

        Part of a long tradition of Minneapolites always starting shit.

      • leon

        #AbolishMinneapolis

    • Suthenboy

      They have no import/export treaties so just cut them off. Power, water, imports, etc.
      Fuck them, let them starve.

    • Yusef drives a Kia

      I think the Bee did that, quite a good idea actually,

    • Florida Man

      I think the Cold War and containment was a mistake. Communism will not work. Ignore them so when they collapse they won’t have anyone to blame. If you cut their services they will say “see, communism would have worked without the wreckers!”

  25. SandMan

    Nice article again Animal. I use shotguns a lot, but the only gun on the list I’ve shot is the Browning A5.

  26. Rebel Scum

    The Party That Wants To Defund The Police Also Wants To Disarm You

    Whether “Defund the Police” actually means dismantling police departments, as it appears to in Minneapolis, or is an attempt to gaslight conservatives while neutering law enforcement, one thing is certain: The party yelling to “defund the police” is the same one that desperately wants to disarm the citizenry, rendering them utterly defenseless.

    Leftists, and increasingly the Democratic mainstream, have long assured Second Amendment advocates that they simply have no need for firearms, specifically semiautomatic guns, which the left deems “assault rifles.”

    Notwithstanding that rights aren’t derived from what one “needs,” particularly when the person discerning necessity is a combative third party, conservatives reject the left’s claim. Not only does the Second Amendment ensure that Americans’ right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, but it is inherent within a person’s natural rights to defend himself and his property.

    • Suthenboy

      They want to disarm us for our own good.

    • The Other Kevin

      I’d like to think that the last month has set back the gun grabbers quite a bit. People are genuinely afraid for their safety and their property, but OTOH there so far haven’t been mass shootings (knock wood). Personally, I know of people who would never have had a gun in the house, but have changed their mind very recently.

      • UnCivilServant

        I wonder what knock-on effects having to jump through the hoops will have on those first time buyers.

      • The Other Kevin

        Hopefully it will open their eyes. At this point they’re looking to get something quick, so I doubt they’d welcome any delays.

  27. Not Adahn

    Stupid metric system. I thought I had slipped a decimal place on a number I gave a colleague because the industry standard area is in cm2 and the wafer diameters are in mm. I didn’t, but lazy interconvertability leads to lazy mistakes.

    Or I just need more of both sleep and coffee.

    • UnCivilServant

      Give him the value in square chains.

      • Not Adahn

        I have to be nice, at least until I’ve convinced that fab to pay for upgrading a second one of my tools.

    • PieInTheSky

      a poor workman blames his measuring system

      • UnCivilServant

        Platitudes are no excuse to saddle people with the inferior French Revolutionary system.

      • PieInTheSky

        yes I know all the ridiculous defenses of your antiquated system.

      • Not Adahn

        Let me know when you’ve figured out how to divide by three.

      • PieInTheSky

        I can at any time, close enough for all practical purposes.

      • Mojeaux

        And 16.

        On center.

      • UnCivilServant

        You misspelled “Proven and Reliable”, but that’s all right, your English is still decent.

      • PieInTheSky

        Proven and Reliable – like living in caves?

      • leon

        Celsius is stupid

      • PieInTheSky

        top notch point.

      • Incentives Matter

        It’s one of many “centigrade” systems, which divides a measurement into one hundred equal portions. Y’know, like the U.S. dollar divided into 100 U.S. cents.  ;-)

        It also uses two benchmarks for temperature which exist in nature — the freezing and boiling points of water. Fahrenheit, in comparison, is a Godawful confusing mess.

        SCD (Standard Canadian Disclaimer) — I’m a Canuck who came of age in the 1970s when conversion of the country to metric was a thing, so I’m quite comfortable working in both systems and can do accurate-to-my-needs translation from one system into another in my head. The older generations and the younger generations are both helpless when needing to do that.

      • Suthenboy

        Same here. Each system is better suited to different endeavors.

      • robc

        Kelvin is clearly superior to Celcius.

      • robc

        Farenheit is a centigrade system for weather — 0 is cold, 100 is hot.

      • Bobarian LMD

        I poke fun, but there is beauty in the metric system.

        It takes one calorie of energy to increase one cubic centimeter (one gram) of water by one degree centigrade.

        Unlike the fucked-up mish-mash of conversions in the imperial system.

      • robc

        metric is a mish mash too.

        The two main systems are mks and cgs.

        Neither one sticks to base units. How about mgs? Oh, right, that results in crazy results.

      • robc

        Can’t we all just agree that Planck Units are the best?

      • Not Adahn

        It takes one calorie of energy to increase one cubic centimeter (one gram) of water by one degree centigrade.

        Ah, but that’s only because calories are a derived unit. To do any kind of math, you’ll need to convert calories to Joules at 4.184 J/g(degC).

      • Not Adahn

        It also uses two benchmarks for temperature which exist in nature — the freezing and boiling points of water. 

        Which vary with local atmospheric pressure, gravity, and water purity.

      • Bobarian LMD

        Two kinds… Counties on the metric system and counties who have been to the moon.

      • PieInTheSky

        have been to the moon – what a pointless endeavor.

      • WTF

        Those grapes are probably sour, anyway.

      • PieInTheSky

        sour grapes make bad wine. But this has little to do with a publicity stunt 50 years ago.

      • Suthenboy

        Agreed….at least until we can figure out a cost effective way to bring valuable raw materials back to earth.

        If we manage to discover and capture a billion ton asteroid composed of some valuable material, what the hell are we going to do with it?
        My guess is utilize it in manufacturing in orbit and then drop the finished products down to earth.

      • Florida Man

        I wonder how steel manufacturers would work in space. Would the cold ambient temperature and lack of oxygen make it impossible?

      • UnCivilServant

        The ambient temperature isn’t “cold”. The vacuum is actually a very good insulator, so you primarily need to worry about controlling the radiant heat and not melting your furnace. The lack of a convective direction would make some parts of the process as they exist now non-viable, so the whole thing would have to be developed from scratch (I almost said “the ground up”, but there is no ground to start from)

      • Not Adahn

        Typically oxygen is a bad thing when working steel, that’s why you heat what you’re working on in the reducing part of the flame.

      • Not Adahn

        I’d call 2.7K pretty cold. But yes, vacuum is an excellent insulator.

      • UnCivilServant

        I read “steel manufacturers” as “making steel in space from iron found up there” aka, an orbital Lachowski. I’d think space steel fabricators would use more electrical tools since they won’t produce any thrust. I don’t know whether it would be easier to produce electricity or to get fuel for a torch up there – I guess it depends on whether there’s a viable source of fuel in the spaceborne materials they’re harvesting.

      • Suthenboy

        Have you ever done woodworking? If you want to learn how to curse try woodworking using commie units.

      • PieInTheSky

        there is no woodworking in Europe so I would not know.

    • Trolleric the Goth

      really? at least on the consumer/tech enthusiast side dice are always measured in mm2

      • Not Adahn

        Right, but a wafer hasn’t been diced yet.

      • PieInTheSky

        dicing can cause defects. Better leave it be.

      • Bobarian LMD

        What does this have to do with shooting craps?

        Put $5 on hard 8 and max bet the odds.

    • whiz

      Furlongs per fortnight or GTFO.

      • Don Escaped any Landslide

        acre*feet/BTU/s/s

    • Timeloose

      Just use 11.81 inches instead of 300mm and that will confuse you even more.

  28. WTF

    I have an Ithaca Model 37 Featherlight 12 ga. that my dad bought for me in the early 1970s. Great gun for all the reasons you said.

  29. Rebel Scum

    Nothing But Crap

    NBC News on Sunday displayed the widespread hypocrisy in establishment media coverage of President Trump’s MAGA rallies, posting a cautionary piece on the president’s decision to resume the iconic events in the age of the coronavirus yet failing to extend the same analysis to the massive crowd that congregated for the Black Lives Matter, LGBT demonstration in Brooklyn Museum plaza on Sunday.

    • Suthenboy

      I dont get it. The media have one thing…credibility. They couldn’t have taken a bigger shit on their credibility if they brought in an elephant and fed it five pounds of Ex-Lax.
      They are just a joke now.

    • Bobarian LMD

      I’m sorry, but the greatest risk to UK food is UK cooking.

      • blackjack

        They have to boil everything so they can eat it with their fucked up teeth.

      • Suthenboy

        *laughs*

        That is no shit.

  30. Ownbestenemy

    My wife is starting to see some push back from competing dog groomers over her prices. She is on the “low” side of the going price for mobile dog grooming, but she set them there because she does basic grooms and baths, not stylizing and nail polish and all that jazz. Those are add-on prices if a customer wants them. So her base prices at first glance, seem low to her competitors.

    We make money off of it because the overhead is low: 50-60 in gas a month, 50/month for phone (dual use personal/business), maintenance fees are about $100/month and bather payout (our son). Annual business fees come out to about $600-800

    With that low overhead she feels she is providing the proper price to her customers for what she delivers. You have a shitstain of a dog? $40 cause it is only going to take me about 30 minutes to groom. You have a massive horse of a dog, $120 cause its going to take me a couple of hours.

    Question is, is that shady she didn’t set her prices to the going market prices for the services?

    • Ownbestenemy

      Oh and the lock down was GOLD for us with the business. Pulled in ~$7000 over the 45-day period.

    • Florida Man

      Why would it be shady? It’s an open market, people can charge anything they want. I free to pay what I want. I was my own dogs so don’t really have a dog in this fight.

      • PieInTheSky

        I was my own dogs – must of been some good acid. or some bad one. depending.

      • Ownbestenemy

        I agree with all that. Was just curious is all. She isn’t loosing money that is for sure.

    • PieInTheSky

      I would say it is not shady and anyone can set whatever price they want. then again that might be leaving money on the table.

      • Ownbestenemy

        And there is money left on the table because of it, but we are talking $2-10 a dog x 15 dogs a week (depending on the client). We make that up with our clients that want the “extras” like teeth cleaning or nail polish for their dogs. People are weird.

      • PieInTheSky

        nail polish – why?

      • Suthenboy

        Have you heard the term ‘fur baby’?

        *eye roll*

      • Ownbestenemy

        ^^ Yep. People are insane and she hates doing it so there are few people she will actually do it for.

      • PieInTheSky

        furby was a toy back in the wild early 2000s

      • UnCivilServant

        Wait, a fur baby isn’t a newborn with hypertrichosis?

      • DEG

        Yep. It comes up a lot in on-line dating profiles.

        I almost always pass on those women unless they have some sort of outstanding assets to make up for the use of the term “fur baby”.

      • Suthenboy

        “…make up for the use of the term “fur baby”.

        Uh….you cant unring that bell.

      • DEG

        I was once young, dumb, and full of cum. Now I’m just dumb and full of cum.

      • Florida Man

        Women that can’t have children to live vicariously through.

      • Ownbestenemy

        There is a reason for our company name, and of course, I don’t want to doxx her/me, but it implies “just the basics” in the company name. She pitches it as more pet maintenance not pet styling.

      • Heroic Mulatto

        There is a reason for our company name

        “The Doggy Styler”

        ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    • UnCivilServant

      is that shady she didn’t set her prices to the going market prices for the services?

      No. As long as her rates cover her costs and are reasonable to her and the customer, the competition can pound sand.

    • Gender Traitor

      Absolutely not shady. If she’s not losing money, more power to her!

      • Mojeaux

        I would argue that she is losing money.

      • R C Dean

        Perhaps, from an opportunity cost perspective.

        But you have to figure how much price elasticity: if she raises her prices to those of her competitors, how much business will she lose?

        Besides, sounds like a different pricing structure – basics plus extras, versus one price includes extras. Different customers likely prefer different pricing structures. I like your “this is maintenance, not styling” approach – gets you to a different market, perhaps.

        If its working for you, OBE, don’t change it, would be my advice.

      • Mojeaux

        Pricing is a thing I deal with every day, because each project is different. For instance, I can’t say, “A small dog will take me 30 minutes and therefore I will charge $X/hour.” What I think is a small job up front could become a huge job for any number of reasons I didn’t anticipate. I’ve been doing this for 12 years and I STILL make costly quote mistakes like that.

        Now, there are things I will do. For instance, a client gave me a graph-type thing that was awful. I don’t do graphs, so I had no intention of doing anything with it other than making an image and slapping it in the book. But it was awful, as I said. So I hired somebody to make a nice one (after all, my name’s on the book design project). Client offered to pay, but I made the decision so I can eat that cost. I’m paying for my reputation of quality work. He’ll insist on paying and I’ll let him, but it means he knows I’m invested enough in his project that I’d do that. If I had that skill myself, I would’ve done it myself, but I don’t and I wasn’t going to spend hours acquiring it. I may do that later, but it’ll be on my own time.

      • Ownbestenemy

        She loves dogs and cats and wants what is best for them, not some pocket toy or style accessory. It has actually gained a lot of praise from most of her customers because there is no pressure to put bows and mohawks or dye the dogs hair or whatever crazy things do for their dogs.

        She will take the time and explain why a cut the customer wants is a bad idea or why it wont work because so many people don’t maintain their dogs even basically so they expect to bring a matted ball of fur and have it coming out like it is ready for a dog show.

      • Mojeaux

        She will take the time and explain why a cut the customer wants is a bad idea or why it wont work because so many people don’t maintain their dogs even basically so they expect to bring a matted ball of fur and have it coming out like it is ready for a dog show.

        That is invaluable. The knowledge she is giving away is the bonus. It’s what I do with my customers. Advise, advise, advise, take all the phone calls they want to give me, and dump knowledge upon their heads. Then they gain trust and that is something you can’t charge for.

    • Mojeaux

      It’s not shady, but you may want to consider that she’s leaving money on the table, as Pie notes. That was my first thought.

      Recently I had some business referred to me by a lady who was retiring. She said, “How much would you charge to do X?” I told her. She came back (sounding outraged) with, “I charge $Y [80% less] than that!”

      Me: Sorry, that’s just my going rate.

      Her: Well, I believe in what they’re doing.

      Me: I believe in it, too, but I gotta eat and this is my livelihood. [Thinking: Quit undercutting the full-time people, bitch.]

      She was genuinely peeved at me for a) not taking the job [I was flattered she would turn over a precious client to me, though] and b) because I charge “so much” like it’s my duty to do so.

      Anyway, my advice would be to find out what other groomers are doing for basic services.

      Whether or not you intend to or not, sometimes low-balling the market telegraphs inferior quality.

      I don’t generally believe in low-balling to get business because my resources (time, energy) are finite and a project takes however long it takes. You can’t really scale individual projects (which is why I don’t discount for more than one project a client has).

      • PieInTheSky

        leaving money on the table, as Pie notes. – apparently the trick is in-app purchases.

      • Mojeaux

        My base rates look reasonable, but since I specialize in difficult-to-format nonfiction, add-ons are a big seller for me. The little projects also make me money because I can do them so quickly, and I like those because they’re a break from the huge projects.

      • Ownbestenemy

        ^^ Add-ons is where we make pure profit for us. Nail polish costs $1-5 and the teeth stuff is like $5 and lasts forever. Nail polishes are an extra $10 and teeth cleanings are $15-25 depending on disposition of the dog. That whole I am going to purposefully stick my fingers in your dog’s mouth is going to cost you.

      • Ownbestenemy

        That is usually hers and mine discussions around prices; are we charging the proper price for the amount of work you are putting in. If the dog is across town, prices are generally higher for those customers because it takes her away from her base and costs more gas to get there and she is upfront that it is going to cost a travel fee since it is not our operating area.

        She is about $2-10 cheaper on average for dogs, so not like she is dirt cheap. She has fallen into one client that “misunderstood” her general statement given to new clients that the prices range from $45-120+ depending on breed and size for a full groom. They demanded the $45 price. She took the money and we no longer have them as clients and have forewarned other mobile groomers to be wary of that customer.

        In her mind, when she was an employee, she would make 50% of the cost charged for each dog. So to her, as long as she is making at least what she was making while an employee she is happy. I have moved her away from that thinking to a more profit based model.

      • Mojeaux

        In her mind, when she was an employee, she would make 50% of the cost charged for each dog. So to her, as long as she is making at least what she was making while an employee she is happy. I have moved her away from that thinking to a more profit based model.

        Maybe she needs to do a self-assessment of her work and realize that her labor is worth more than she values it at now.

        I find in my industry that price is somewhat driven by confidence in and assessment of one’s work. I have colleagues who don’t charge very much because deep down inside, they don’t think they’re very good at it. And I have colleagues who charge very little (and their quotes system is pretty automated) because they’re working on the cheap and fast model without regard to the “good” option, i.e., “cheap, fast, good: pick any two.”

    • Incentives Matter

      In a capitalist system, you set the prices any way you want, and your competitors are free to respond any way they want (as are your potential and actual customers). People who say otherwise have simply gotten comfortable in their niche of the marketplace.

      I see this crap from “professional” photographers all the time who are upset that new entrants or talented amateurs are “undercutting” them. No one guaranteed you a living from what you’re doing, buddy — in fact, no one guaranteed you a single sale of your services.

      You and your wife are fine doing what you’re doing. Kudos for figuring out how to do well “in these trying times.”  :-/

      • PieInTheSky

        In a capitalist system, you set the prices any way you want – what about in the US system?

      • Mojeaux

        I see this crap from “professional” photographers all the time who are upset that new entrants or talented amateurs are “undercutting” them.

        This is true and I see both sides of the problem and although I’ve never been on the “undercutting” side of the problem, I have sought out cheaper alternatives.

        HOWEVER, the newbies who are undercutting today will tomorrow be the oldbies complaining about upstarts undercutting them.

    • Ownbestenemy

      Thanks all. Funny thing is she said “Fuck those groomers and I looked at all their pictures she posts and their quality is crap and overcharges for shitty work” She is Irish, so allowed to speak like that.

      • Mojeaux

        I looked at all their pictures she posts and their quality is crap and overcharges for shitty work

        Which tells me your wife is undercharging for fantastic work.

      • Ownbestenemy

        Irish and a Cancer..I ain’t convincing her otherwise without a fat lip and awaken to her with scissor hovering over me

      • Mojeaux

        OBE, I’m not trying to convince you/your wife to start charging more, per se. I’m just pointing out an alternate viewpoint from the high-charging side of an industry, where

        “person 1 overcharging for shitty work” = “person 2 undercharging for fantastic work”

      • Ownbestenemy

        I know, that is why I ask here. Y’all give it straight

    • Not Adahn

      You have a shitstain of a dog? $40 cause it is only going to take me about 30 minutes to groom.

      huh. I thought you’d charge more for excessive shit stains.

  31. UnCivilServant

    Late Lunch review – Pilsbury’s “Pizza” Dough in a can.

    Pros – Product was dough. Taste after cooking was fine.

    First red flag – instructions on package said to pre-cook dough before topping. Following this instruction resulted in cheese that had not finished melting (let alone developing any browning) before the crust was crispy and in danger of burning. Crust was puffy and bread-like, making folding slices difficult, especially given that the bottom had gotten crispy.

    I have a second can, may try cooking without pre-cooking tomorrow.

    • Suthenboy

      Pre-cook less?

      I am still working on perfecting my pizza crust. Sauce, toppings…I have all of that down pat, but I am not satisfied with my crust. The last one was undercooked, prior one overcooked. I know, it seems like an easy titration would solve this problem but the recipes were not the same.

      • Chipwooder

        What I’ve found to be the key to a great crust is the right flour – tipo 00 flour, to be exact.

      • I'm Here To Help

        When we lived in Germany, one food that we loved over there was pizza from a local restaurant owned by a family from Amalfi. Best pizza dough and homemade cheeses. Most German foods we can make ourselves better than most restaurants, but that pizza we would miss.

        One week I was down in Naples on business, and my wife experimented on a dozen recipes to try to replicate their dough. I got a call from her at the end of the week, saying that she had finally done it. I was skeptical, but she made it when I got home, and it was spot on. Dough is left to rise a day or two in the fridge, and takes on a slight sourdough flavor. Develops a nice crust, but is still chewy. Here’s her recipe:

        600g bread flour
        1 tsp sugar
        2 1/4 tsp yeast
        2 tsp kosher salt

        1 1/2 cups warm water (about 110F)
        2 Tbs olive oil

        Mix dry ingredients in a stand mixer with the bread hook attached. Mix water and oil, and slowly pour into the dry ingredients while mixer is on lowest setting. Once water is incorporated, turn mixer up to medium until the dough is smooth. Remove bowl from mixer.

        Cover bowl with a tea towel, and let it rise for about an hour. I used to leave ours on the back porch (screened in pool) and it was just right. Let dough rise until doubled.

        Punch down, and divide the dough into 4 or 5 servings. This combination will yield right at 1kg of dough, so either 250g or 200g portions. Spray Tupperware containers with olive oil, and put the dough in individual containers. Pop them in the fridge at least overnight, but better if you leave it for two days.

        Day of use, take the dough out of the fridge (it will have risen again, and will likely fill the Tupperware). Take out the dough and flatten it into a circle about the size of your hand, put it on a floured surface, and cover with the tea towel. Prepare your toppings.

        Preheat oven to as hot as you can get it (ours is 550F), and use a pizza stone if possible. Let the oven preheat for a while to get the stone up to temperature.

        Dust a pizza peel with cornmeal – you have to be generous, but try to keep it contained, as uncovered cornmeal will burn in the oven and set of smoke alarms. Put the dough on the peel, and make sure it slides easily before putting the toppings on the pizza. Add your favorite toppings, and pop it in the oven. Bake until the crust browns and the toppings are bubbling nicely.

        Remove and eat…

      • I'm Here To Help

        Whoops, left out the step to stretch out the dough before you put it on the peel. The 200g portions make a pizza about the size of a dinner plate (10-12″ diameter), the 250g portion will be slightly larger. I won’t give any advice on stretching, as I’m rubbish at it.

    • Chipwooder

      I always bake my dough, whether store-bought or homemade, for a short time before topping. I brush some garlic butter on it and keep it in just long enough for it to start to harden on the top. It’s usually between 5-10 mins. Keeps the crust from getting soggy. You have to roll it out very thin, though.

      • UnCivilServant

        My curst is never soggy, the biggest risk is always burning it.

    • Gender Traitor

      Poppin’ Fresh understands that pizza is not meant to be folded (but yes, cheese should melt & brown before the crust burns.)

      • UnCivilServant

        The ability, nay, the requirement to fold the slice is one of the criteria that needs to be met to be a pizza.

      • Tres Cool

        While that’s how I handle pie-sliced pizza, some outlets cut it into squares (Donato’s/Cassanos/Marion’s) that make the approach impossible.

        When Jugsy wants homemade pizza, that is the dough I’ve used. Never had issues.

      • UnCivilServant

        Squares? SQUARES?!!! SQUARES!?!?

        The savages.

      • Gender Traitor

        I’d argue that’s strictly a New York thing. I’m not necessarily a fan, but the two main Dayton pizza chains tend to default to slicing their pizzas into little squares (and whatever shape name you’d apply to the edge pieces.) I’d just as soon have the wedge, but fold it?? Pfft!

      • Incentives Matter

        You could always, oh I dunno, I’m just spit-ballin’ here, cook the entire pizza for a few minutes less, and then run it under a broiler for a couple of minutes.

        Disclaimer: this is the method I actually use all the time, and it works like a hot damn. It’s particularly useful for toppings you need to add partway through the cooking period ’cause you don’t want them over-cooked or burnt.

      • UnCivilServant

        I don’t know if the broiler even opens.

    • Toxteth O’Grady

      UCS: for blind baking, try scoring (I forget the culinary term) the dough lightly with a fork. Will probably reduce puffiness. And of course reduce the cooking time a bit.

    • PieInTheSky

      We must get it right this time – I agree. I say US needs a president that is neither republican nor democratic to teach the big parties a lesson about taking the electorate for granted.

      • Don Escaped any Landslide

        I’ll be in my bunk

      • Suthenboy

        Orange you insightful.

      • Incentives Matter

        ^^ Pie gets it.

    • Rebel Scum

      risk loosing our democracy

      What democracy?

    • Not Adahn

      Our democracy is tight!

  32. mexican sharpshooter

    I’ve only handled one of these on the list (Auto-5).

    I have a Mossberg 500 I purchased in college, I just never got a lot of trigger time with it. Its outfitted with an 18.5” barrel and Magpul furniture, mostly because its main purpose at this point to to be able to outfit somebody I may need to outfit with a weapon.

    • Animal

      I put a Hogue overmolded stock and foreend on my 12-gauge 500, not for any Tacticool reasons but because the old original hardwood stock was battered beyond redemption. The old piece is on its second bird barrel. I have a 24″ rifle-sighted smoothbore slug barrel and an 18″ cylinder bore barrel, but don’t use those all that much.

      The old piece is banged up and ugly, but it still works perfectly. I bet I’ve killed more game with it than with all my other guns combined, and bear in mind that I haven’t fired it at game in ten years or so.

      • mexican sharpshooter

        Its nothing fancy but simple to use and reliable. Just don’t short stroke it.

      • Not Adahn

        That’s what she said?

    • bacon-magic

      I loved my mossberg 500 for hunting.

  33. Animal

    In this series I’m planning to do the top five rifles, revolvers and pistols; I’m thinking of adding the “top five guns you should have in your survival kit.” My ideas may seem unusual to some.

    • UnCivilServant

      How about the “Top Five you can actually afford.”?

      • Suthenboy

        It is hard to beat a basic shotgun for overall usefulness. It is hard to beat a 22 rifle for overall usefulness. Pistols are more of a specialized tool than a rifle or shotgun but a good quality 22 revolver is hard to beat.

        Look for reliability and availability of ammo. Simpler is better.

      • Animal

        Where’s the fun in that? (Although it’s not a bad idea; top five guns for those on a budget?)

      • Not Adahn

        Honest Outlaw (who is an excellent shot, btw) has a series of those, depending on your price point:

        Sub $400

        Sub $300

    • Timeloose

      Do any of the lists contain a zip gun?

    • db

      Add in top five machineguns

    • Florida Man

      Top 5 improvised weapons! Number 3 will shock you, literally!

    • Sean

      I’m looking forward to the rest of the series.

    • Ownbestenemy

      Definitely looking forward to the rest of the series. Thanks Animal!

    • DEG

      Adding the survival kit rifles is a good idea.

      I look forward to the rest of the installments.

    • EvilSheldon

      I’ll be interested to read it.

      Unusual, huh? Will it include a .22 airgun?

  34. Gustave Lytton

    Idiot Senator from OK has caved to the renaming Maoists. Dumbass has joined full in on the Confederates were traitors. So why didn’t the US hang every last one of them at the conclusion of the war? That’s right, because they were Americans first, even if fighting against the union. These idiots have almost guaranteed that Civil War II will be like Bosnia or Rwanda without quarter. I feel like Charleton Heston at the end of Planet of the Apes.

    Next up, National Guard units of southern states with Civil War campaign streamers.

    • mexican sharpshooter

      I feel like Charleton Heston at the end of Planet of the Apes.

      It can’t be all bad, you don’t have a Nova around?

      • leon

        Nova just feeds the Male Patriarchy Fantasy that is the entirety of Planet of the Apes.

      • mexican sharpshooter

        Certainly more so than Zira, at least she can talk.

      • Rebel Scum

        NoVa should be annexed by DC so we can make Virginia great again.

    • Not Adahn

      Oklahoma was not a part of the Confederacy. Wypipo weren’t even allowed in until 1889.

      • Gustave Lytton

        Waite is inconvenient

      • Not Adahn

        Hmm. He was an Oklahoman, but the Cherokee weren’t the rulers of Indian territory.

      • Gustave Lytton

        Not that they controlled Oklahoma, but inconvenient that some Indians fought for the confederacy.

      • leon

        Not that it would have changed much except maybe the speed/timeline of events, but many tribes made the unfortunate choice to pick the losing side of every war on this continent from 1750s and onward.

    • leon

      I said it this morning. Many Military Units have CSA regimental histories.

      But even further, why should the 11 CSA states be allowed to have representation. They fucking left the union, and so they shouldn’t be allowed to dictate politics of the Union.

      • Rebel Scum

        They fucking left the union

        Well, they tried. But Lincoln was determined to collect those tax dollars.

      • Suthenboy

        “They fucking left the union, ”

        So I get back every penny I have paid in taxes to the Union?

      • leon

        No. You have to still pay your tribute. You just get to be an occupied territory like you should have been.

      • robc

        But the justification for the war was that it was impossible to leave the union.

        So they never left to begin with.

      • leon

        Justifications are just words you say do get to the right end.

      • Viking1865

        You’re right, but I propose a compromise. All the worstest Confederates were in Virginia.

        Tim Kaine, Mark Warner, you are no longer Senators.

    • Plinker762

      We should dig up all the Confederate graves and put the remains on trial for treason.

      • Suthenboy

        God forbid we should try actual living traitors

        *side-eyes Hillary Clinton and a hundred other deep-staters*

      • Gustave Lytton

        And put their descendants into chains. It’s punishment so totes legal.

      • Rebel Scum

        I’m actually surprised Hollywood Cemetery hasn’t been attacked yet. Lots of Confederate graves in there.

      • Chipwooder

        I’m sure it’s time is coming.

      • Not Adahn

        Madison WI has already removed the grave markers for CSA POWs that died there.

      • Gustave Lytton

        If only that would stop them.

      • Chipwooder

        Which is beyond surreal to me – the fuck can a skeleton six feet underground possibly do to oppress anyone?

      • Not Adahn

        Glorifying racists by admitting they’re buried in a particular place oppresses everyone, bigot!

      • Pope Jimbo

        One of the two monuments had the phrase “unsung heroes” on it when referencing the 140 CSA men who died in captivity. Can’t have them called heroes.

        The other monument simply had the names of the 140 men who died there and the name of the woman who single handedly cleaned up their graves around the turn of the century. Why? Who the fuck knows.

    • Heroic Mulatto

      So why didn’t the US hang every last one of them at the conclusion of the war?

      War fatigue.

      • leon

        It seems like much of the complaint is that there wasn’t enough will then to crush the south like we modern folk think they deserved. So best to do it now.

      • Drake

        Like the ends of WWi and I – do you want them to surrender and go back to living peaceably, or do you want an endless guerilla war that makes Afghanistan look like a Sunday afternoon picnic?

      • Heroic Mulatto

        Even with Reconstruction, you had guerrilla groups like the original Klan and the Red Shirts waging an insurgency until they got voted into office post-Reconstruction.

  35. Pope Jimbo

    Just to foment more troubles, I’d like to suggest that we rename Lake Bde Maka Ska to Lake Floyd.

    Everyone knows how to pronounce it and wouldn’t it make white men soooooooo mad if the lake that used to be named after their idol John C. Calhoun is now named after a black man.

    And it is traditional to renege on promises to native americans, so taking away their dumb name should be OK.

    • robc

      Why was there a lake named for Calhoun in Minnesota to begin with?

      • leon

        Candian Supremacists.

      • Pope Jimbo

        The United States Secretary of War, John C. Calhoun, sent the Army to survey the area that would surround Fort Snelling in 1817. Calhoun had also authorized the construction of Fort Snelling, one of the earliest American settlements in the state. The surveyors named the water body “Lake Calhoun” in his honor,[12] and the Fort Snelling Military Reservation survey map of Lt. James L. Thompson in 1839 shows that name for the lake.

    • Heroic Mulatto

      The race pimps in the black community were extremely pissed off during the early days of the coronavirus with the focus on anti-Asian bigotry, particularly because some people were finally starting to pay attention to the fact that much of it has emanated from the urban black community for decades. With the death of George Floyd, they are happier than pigs in shit that has been swept under the rug again and everyone is rending their garments over anti-black racism. Because the “conversation” about race can only ever be about black people.

      • leon

        Well when the Asians have several hundred years of oppression under white people under their belt, maybe they can play along. Until then they need to shut-up and listen. Because silence is consent to the racist regime.

      • Pope Jimbo

        The problem Asians have with the grievance industry is that the kids all know The Man will never oppress them anywhere close to how badly their parents oppress them every day.

        The kids know that if they don’t get good grades or – worse – try to blame a bad grade on some racist teacher they are going to get their asses handed to them by their parents.

      • Heroic Mulatto

        Basically Amy Chua’s “Triple Package”.

    • leon

      By trying to pit PoC against each other, you have shown that you are truly a white supremacist.

      • Heroic Mulatto

        I’ve dedicated my life to healing the brown-yellow rift, by filling one “rift” at a time.

      • Pope Jimbo

        Well I’m a lazy white supremacist for sure. I married a Korean woman just so I could get a twofer on oppression. When I tell her to get me a sammich, I am oppressing the Asians and the women all at the same time.

  36. Francisco d'Anconia

    I demand Washington and Jefferson be removed from Mt Rushmore. And all public institutions named after them be renamed and stricken from our history.

  37. I'm Here To Help

    My favorite shotgun is an old German drilling gun that I inherited. Double barrel 12 gauge side by side, with a 8mm Mauser rifle barrel underneath. Selector switch on the top of the stock switches the front trigger from the shotgun to the rifle, and when the rifle is selected the iron sights pop up. No idea when it was made, but it is sometime in the interwar period. Really need to get it checked out by a gunsmith to see if it is still safe to shoot, and figure out which of the Mauser rounds it is made for (7.92×57 Mauser or the 8×57 IRS – I think it is the first based on markings on the barrel)…