Those of you Glibs who haven’t pickled your brains yet will recall my Glibitzer Prize-nominated article “Marshal Dillon – Libertarian Hero or Capital A Asshole”, in which I proved without a doubt that Matt Dillon is an authoritarian fuckwit. Since posting that article I have heard many ‘new to me’ episodes of “Gunsmoke”, one in particular has me questioning some long held beliefs. Not about Marshal Dillon, he’s always an asshole. So what’s in this episode that has me reevaluating my core principles? Let’s find out.
The episode in question is called “The Blacksmith” you can listen to it here (episode 108). It Originally aired way back on June 5th, 1954, and was written by the show’s co-creator and most prolific writer (379 scripts) John Meston. The story starts with Marshal Matt Dillon and his deputy Chester Proudfoot going to pick up Matt’s horse from the blacksmith, when they get there the blacksmith, a heavily-accented German named Emil, is getting an earful from a cowboy named Tolman. Tolman claims the horse Emil shoed is lame due to Emil’s shoddy (Ha!) work and refuses to pay. Emil tells him “fine, if you aren’t satisfied don’t pay,” after Tolman rides off Emil tells our heroes that the horse Tolman was riding was the one he shoed and they can all see it’s fine. Matt offers to go get the chiseling cowboy and make him settle his bill, but Emil declines and says it’s not worth the trouble.
A few days later Matt, Chester, and Doc are hanging out, talking about Lily Langtree when Emil approaches. He is waiting for the stage to meet his bride-to-be he got through the Old West version of Craigslist, and wants the fellows to join him and meet the soon to be Mrs. Blacksmith. After meeting Gretchen, a heavily accented German, and seeing the couple off to get settled, Matt, Chester, and Doc head off to the Long Branch for a beer (Doc’s buying.) When they get to the saloon Tolman, and his friends Spooner and Willy, are at a table bad mouthing Emil and bemoaning the changing demographics of Dodge City. This angers Matt and, as he often does, he takes it upon himself to tell private citizens to get out of a private establishment simply because he doesn’t like them. Tolman protests and Matt doubles down again orders them to leave and warns them to leave Emil and his “girl” alone. Willy starts to imply that Emil’s “girl” is nothing more than a whore but Matt cold cocks him before he can finish.
A few weeks later, Emil makes Gretchen an honest woman and the whole town gets together to celebrate the nuptials. A drunk Tolman and his friends arrive and Tolman makes a scene trying to get the Bride to dance with him. Emil in an attempt to defuse the situation picks up Tolman and dunks him in a water trough, much to the amusement of the crowd and the embarrassment of Tolman who vows to get revenge on the “Dutchman”. A few days later Tolman’s friend Spooner lures Emil out of down for a bogus blacksmithing emergency, while gone Emil’s shop is burned down, and Tolman is the prime suspect although no one saw anything. A lack of evidence notwithstanding, Marsal Dillon tells Emil if he’ll perjure himself and claim that Tolman was responsible Matt will arrest Tolman. Emil, declines but hints that he’ll get Tolman back in his own way.
Saturday morning finds Matt and Chester watching as Emil waits patiently for Tolman to come to town for his weekly supplies. When Chester sees Tolman approaching with Spooner and Willy, he and Matt go out to intercept the trio before Emil can confront them. Matt takes the cowboys’ guns from them just as Emil walks up and announces that he is there to chew bubble gum and kick Tolman’s ass. Tolman tells Emil that if he touches him Willy and Spooner will back him up, Matt offers to make sure the cowboys only go at the blacksmith one at a time. To Emil’s credit he declines this offer and ends up larruping all three at once. And thus the story ends with the three beaten half-to-death cowboys carried off to Docs and the winded but otherwise unhurt Blacksmith walks off triumphantly into the sunset.
Nice little story. Now, what could be problematic about that? What bothered me, aside from Chester’s insipid toadying, was the finale and the saloon scene. The one thing that keeps me from being The One True Libertarian is my position that the NAP is a bit to limiting, sometimes a person is just begging for an ass-kicking, and I have no issue if they get one. The belligerent drunk who insults your mother, or the jerk who keeps hassling you after repeated warnings, for example. On the surface these two scenes shouldn’t bother me, but they do. Is it merely my dislike for Marshall Dillon or something more?
In the saloon scene, Willy fits my prerequisites for a thumping and if Emil had been there I’d be cool with him doing the job. If someone deserve a beatdown does it matter who delivers it? Now, Dillon is The Law in Dodge and thus probably should be held to a higher standard than a father or husband who defends the honor of their wife or daughter. And, I’d be remiss to point out that, like Mason Rudolph, Matt started it. Those two objections aside, I still found my self a bit torn on the question of if his breaching of the NAP was justified here. I’d wager most of you gun nutz were bothered with Dillon’s disarming of the cowboys in the final scene, as was I, but what really got me thinking was his offer to hold the cowboys back so Emil could take them on one at a time. You may be thinking that there’s nothing wrong with insuring that it’s a fair fight, but what is a “fair” fight? Earlier in the show Dillon warns Tolman that if Emil ever got mad enough he could kill Tolman with his bare hands. In that sense Dillon knew that a one-on-one fight wouldn’t be fair. Also, suppose Emil wasn’t a big beefy blacksmith but some nebbish nerdy newsman, would it have been fair for Matt to hold Tolman’s arms so the weaker man could pummel away? Assuming Tolman deserved an ass-kicking does it matter how he gets it?
These are the issues that have me re-evaluating my position on the NAP. I’m not sure where I’m at, I’m leaning towards my initial take but realize that I have some gray areas to puzzle out. What’s your take fellow Glibs? Is the NAP sacrosanct or is there room for exceptions? Hash it out in the comments, or have a nerd fight over who drew Daredevil better, Mazzucchelli or Sienkiewicz, or whatever. I’m not the boss of you.
Is harassment aggression? I’d argue that it is. It’s a type of trespass.
The question mark for me is the racist crap. At what point on the spectrum from “damn Germans” to “we need to run Emil and wife out of town” does it become harassment?
Easily resolved, in my mind. Someone who is provoking an ass-kicking has consented to it. They universally believe they will be the one kicking ass*, and are just trying to get the process started with an extra helping of asshole.
*And they may not be wrong. But there’s only one way to find out.
I figure that intentionally trying to provoke people to violence is a form of aggression, and should be treated as such.
I’ve moderated some as I age, but no I don’t necessarily believe the NAP is sacrosanct. I agree that sometimes duking it out is the best option to head off further issues. At least one problem with that is when people can’t take the L and move on, but rather turn it into Hatfield and McCoy.
The first two said it better than I.
They don’t know shit. Yours was best.
*doffs hat*
*drops gloves*
*drops gloves*
Finally!
You disrespectful cads!
*picks up gloves*
*narrows gaze*
As an Hatfield relative, I’ll let you know it’s the damn McCoy’s fault.
I’m dismissing all the ways Dillon could help someone get back at someone else.
So discarding all the changes in the script that would change Emil into a newsman, I would say that if Nerdy Newsman had the balls to hit back, it would be in his own way.
Also, knowing that Emil could kill them all with his bare hands changes your rendition of the plot a lot. That should have been put up at the front because it’s a significant tidbit. We know from the beginning, then, that Emil is holding back because of his responsibility not to kill them, not because he’s a pansy and/or doesn’t want to bother with it.
Is this something I should’ve said in the forum when you were asking for editors?
Emil being a blacksmith could be adequate signaling that he is a big strong fella who can hold his own in a scrap.
I’ve seen some scrawny metal movers.
This is Gunsmoke. I’m comfortable going with the stereotype.
Really? Do they just do stock removal?
That’s not moving metal.
Besides, they were ferriers.
Some genetic freak that is perpetually scrawny.
Ah, that actually makes a lot more sense. Bending thin iron stock is a lot easier than steel that you can’t get arbitrarily hot.
Back in the day though they didn’t have power hammers and hydraulic presses, and it wasn’t a hobby so blacksmiths moved metal entirely by hand all day every day. They weren’t scrawny.
Considering what happens to modern blacksmiths’ rotator cuffs, I wonder what the lifespan of ye olde blacksmiths was — unless they had journeymen do the heavy hitting for them.
Haven’t you ever seen the two person hammering? One strikes where the force needs to be applied, and the seond hits the exact same spot. It’s both training a joint protection.
Lifespan wasn’t great. Same with bakers who moved and worked heavy dough all day long. Takes a toll on the body.
They didn’t live long either. Same with bakers. Rarely did you find an blacksmith or baker with grey hair.
Anecdotally, my great grandfather logger then blacksmith died aged 59. I can’t recall from what.
I would bet the main reason for any reduced lifespan is mostly related to breathing coal dust.
He was doing coke wrong?
“He beats steel for a living. He can beat you.”
I didn’t infer that from what Hype wrote. The bit of information that a) Emil could kill all 3 of them with his bare hands and b) Dillon knew this up front would have gone a long way to my understanding of the situation.
That said, I never really answered the question as to what I thought of the NAP, did I?
I think whats-his-buckets violated the NAP the minute he said he wouldn’t pay for the horse’s shoeing. Fuck you, pay me.
Mojeaux nails it. He stole from the blacksmith, therefore the blacksmith is justified in using force.
Amish blacksmith shoes our horses. He’s short and kinda wiry, but his handshake will get your attention.
I boycott the Glibitzer Prizes.
Sexist!
Why thank you.
You’re getting them mixed up with the GlibBITCHer prizes.
Was going to golf clap and then realized this needed a finger snap (a la Damon Wayans).
This group could probably get away with giving kibbitzer prizes.
RIP, Hack.
I really liked that guy.
You listen to the Jocko podcast?
The blacksmith reference reminded me of the old story of the Middle Ages town which was home to an odd order of monks, whose calling was the raising of carnivorous plants. The problem was, the town’s children kept disappearing, and the townspeople suspected the monk’s plants were the reason.
The town’s Mayor went to the monks and asked them to stop growing the carnivorous plants. “We can’t,” they told him. “It’s our calling from God.”
Months went by, and several more children disappeared. Meanwhile, the monks expanded their greenhouse as their population of carnivorous plants grew larger. So the town gathered a delegation of prominent citizens, who went to the monks again to plead they either stop growing the plants or move away. “No,” the monks said, “as we told you, it’s our calling from God. We have to grow these plants.”
The disappearances continued. In frustration, the townspeople went to the strongest man in town – Hugh, the blacksmith.
“I know just what to do,” Hugh told them. He went to the monastery, beat up the monks, drove them away, and burned down the monastery and all the carnivorous plants therein.
The moral of the story?
Hugh, and only Hugh, can prevent florist friars.
I knew something bad was coming, but that was far worse than I imagined. You should be ashamed of yourself.
It was so much worse than imagined.
*groan*
Boo
Those plants must’ve been quite pungent.
Dad Level 100.
Classic
You should be ashamed. After a quick victory lap, of course.
Boooo.
There’s always gray areas. I spent much of my
teenage years finding them and trying to exploit them.
I frequently succeeded, but that’s not really any
credit to me, but an testament to what I assume were
harried bureaucrats and that I wasn’t really encouraging
anyone else to follow.
Certainly one of the issues I have with the NAP as
naively construed is, like anything, if your application
of it is rigid, it can be exploited. How far do you have
to let someone put a plan for aggression into place
before you can take action to put a stop to it? And how
aggressive can your putting a stop to it be? I know,
more or less my answer. I’m not sure how authentically
libertarian it is, but I’m comfortable with it anyway.
The law can struggle with this too. It’s usually a crime
in itself to attempt a crime. Attempted murder is
a crime. But what’s an attempt? How far do you have
to go? As you might imagine, this comes up a fair bit.
As for the instant case of disarming the cowboys, I don’t
have a problem with that really. Taking some steps
to keep the level of violence or retaliation within some
sort of bounds related to the fight at hand seems
reasonable to me. Sometimes you have to let the
person on the scene exercise some discretion.
Yes that can be abused. So can not letting people
have any discretion. See “no tolerance” policies
in schools, where school officials hide behind
“no discretion” policies to avoid any responsibility.
“Attempted murder,” now honestly, did they ever give anyone a Nobel prize for “attempted chemistry?”
Half a nobel prize? Part of a prize? The penalty for attempt is
usually less than that for the completed crime.
Its a quote from Sideshow Bob on the Simpsons.
Obama got one for attempted President.
There’s always gray areas.
And people who try to shave the angles in gray areas get zero benefit of the doubt. Play stupid games, etc.
Sombody’s price-setting algorithm is on the fritz
https://www.targetsportsusa.com/federal-heavyweight-tss-flightcontrol-flex-12-gauge-ammo-3-5-7-9-combo-2-1-2oz-ptssx195f79-p-108614.aspx
(For those reading in the future, that’s 12ga birdshot at $9.60/round. )
Maybe the pellets are target-sensing and trajectory correcting?
Looks like a specialized load for turkey hunting. Turkey hunters and waterfowlers will shell out some bucks for hunting loads that give some edge, and considering a turkey hunter may only fire one or two shots in a season, it’s not as unreasonable as you might think.
Yeah tungsten shot is outrageously priced
*anti hunting, watermelons, and gun grabbers salivate at possibility of extending lead bans to all species*
I’m salivating at the prospect of leaving the combustible propellant age. I want a handgun that uses electricity to launch thousands of tiny monofilament flechettes at 3000fps.
The backpack for the batteries and capacitors would make you Glibfit.
OT: continuing the pace sticking from the last thread. I first saw it when training with the TA. Colour Sergeant or Sgt Major walked around with it in the cantonment area until someone asked him about it and he then proceeded to demonstrate its uses. I’ve lusted after one ever since but it would just be a dust collector.
http://www.armytigers.com/artefacts/pace-stick (PWRR is “my” regiment)
Hong Kong civies (either civilian cadets or milsim, not sure which)
https://youtu.be/67s3QJUy9Oo
The GALAXY FACTORY BUILDING in the background makes it even sweeter.
Of course, tungsten bullets would likely be armor piercing, so there’s that.
With sabots, though, so as not to damage your rifling…
Or just jacketted. or half-jacketted.
But for the same size projectile, the tungsten will accelerate <60% of a lead one, so they'll be going a lot slower. They might not pierce armor.
Now I have to go watch Gunsmoke. I think it is on before Three Stooges on Saturdays.
Please write up a Stooges NAP article.
Eye-pokes are not acceptable.
Unless they’re funny.
Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk
William Conrad > James Arness
Peter Graves > James Arness
No; that’s The Rifleman that comes on immediately before the Stooges. Two episodes from 5-6 PM ET.
Dad and I watch The Rifleman at dinner every Saturday.
Frank Frazetta drew everything better.
Plus 10000000000
I’ve got ‘Spider Man’ on my wall. Stole if from my dad.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0894/8394/products/189-Frazetta.jpg?v=1568332968
One of my favorites:
http://fantasy.mrugala.net/Frank%20Frazetta%20-%20Icon/Frank%20Frazetta%20-%20Icon%20-%2026.jpg
And one of mine:
https://img0.etsystatic.com/000/0/5886956/il_fullxfull.200318364.jpg
I’m as much an absolutist about the NAP as I am about anything.
To my mind, there’s a huge difference between thinking someone deserves a beating, and thinking someone should be able to get away with delivering one.
I am the same. The question, as Trashy notes, is when does harassment violate the NAP.
Immediately.
All harassment is aggression.
However, any response needs to be proportional.
I would say that harassment violates the NAP when it involves force, or actionable threats of force, against me or my property.
Mere speech doesn’t qualify. I’m unwilling to give moral cover to the idiotic and socially corrosive idea that, “Speech is Violence.”
And yeah, any response needs to be proportional to the threat, but I think that is probably a different argument.
The Evil one has a point.
My conclusion*: when you jump the bastard, make sure there are no witnesses.
*Note: not legal advice.
You bring up a good point there, kinda in a roundabout way.
Mere speech can never be aggression. But there are a few ideas which, if communicated to me in person, would cause me to say, “Thirty days in the county lockup might be worth it.”
But that’s the devil on my shoulder. The angel on the other shoulder is saying, “You used to know a guy who got killed in a stupid fistfight just like this…”
So. Like the man said, not legal (or moral, practical, or metaphysical) advice.
Mere speech can never be aggression.
This reminds me of the discussion in CrimLaw about what an attempted crime actually is. If the guy has a gun and threatens to kill you, can you act? Do you have to wait for the guy to point the gun at you before you act? Do you have to wait for him to put his finger on the trigger? When has the guy crossed that aggression line?
Speech may not be aggression, but threats are aggression-adjacent. Just like pointing a gun at somebody isn’t murder, but it’s murder-adjacent. A legitimate threat (intent) plus opportunity and capability to carry out that threat feels a whole lot like aggression to me.
But when is mere speech no longer mere speech?
Someone yelling at me from across the room is not the same thing at all as someone up in my face yelling those same things.
I agree. It’s one of those things that once you start looking for angles, it is no longer a principle.
I’ve been failing lately. Failing the Glibertariat and myself. I haven’t Firsted in too long. Well, I’m here to make a vow to all of you. I will First again. I will First in such a way that they will tell tales about it long after we have all left this world.
Should we be notifying the authorities and getting a red flag order?
How’s your back?
The Bro heals.
Thanks Hyp. I grew up with Matt and Chester I knew i was supposed to like him but I never did. You’ve put words that.
We’ve been seeing a lot of this in the past year (and will see more) wih all these peaceful protesters surrounding cars and threatening the occpants. Unfortunatley, The Law jumps on the ones we’d call the victims.
“Nothing more?” A whore provides a service in high demand. Plus, what type of marriage in the 19th century wasn’t a business proposition?
It’s best to have laws limiting violence to self-defense or defense of others. The people who deserve a beatdown can get a verbal beatdown.
BUT if you’re in the position of giving a beatdown to someone who deserves it morally but not legally, the best thing to do is lawyer up.
Incidentally, and I suppose this will be in the links later today, do you know the difference between the Pulitzer Prize and the American Humanist Association’s (AHA) Humanist of the Year Award?
A Pulitzer can’t be revoked (not even for covering for commie murders) but the AHA award *can* be revoked.
Specifically, the AHA revoked Richard Dawkin’s award from 1996 because he Tweeted this:
Richard Dawkins
@RichardDawkins
·
Apr 10
In 2015, Rachel Dolezal, a white chapter president of NAACP, was vilified for identifying as Black. Some men choose to identify as women, and some women choose to identify as men. You will be vilified if you deny that they literally are what they identify as.
Discuss.
Richard Dawkins
@RichardDawkins
·
Apr 12
I do not intend to disparage trans people. I see that my academic “Discuss” question has been misconstrued as such and I deplore this. It was also not my intent to ally in any way with Republican bigots in US now exploiting this issue .
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/richard-dawkins-loses-e2-80-98humanist-of-the-year-e2-80-99-title-over-trans-comments/ar-BB1fR0Up
Dawkins is a smart guy with some big blind spots: See: kicking Lala Ward to the curb.
IOW, he didn’t want a discussion at all.
Anyone who ends a remark with “Discuss.” is asking for a beat-down, and were the agressors.
I hate the “Discuss” format of commentating. Go fuck yourself, i aint your eunuch to debate at your beck and call. And don’t hide behind it to avoid giving your opinion on something.
What do YOU think?
It’s Dawkins, has he ever been anything but smug and condescending?
Dawkins is a grade A piece of shit. Not because he’s an atheist, but because he’s an elitist that doesn’t have the conviction to stand up to the left mob.
He’s perfectly willing to express his hatred and disdain for things his friends hate, but when it comes to issues dear to to his social circle, he’s a fucking coward.
Anyone else just get mlb the show 2021 on Xbox?
I understand this is not Necessarily the place for this I’m trying to find some people to play against.
Hit the forum.
Thanks tundra.
don’t have an xboxdon’t have a modern Xbox.Since Starship Troopers comes up here frequently.
Where’s the no button on the “would you like to know more?”?
You’re welcome.
I’m actually surprised at how much debate a medicore book and a meh movie manages to spark.
Yes, I’ve read the book. Yes, I’ve seen the movie. I’ve even read a lot of discourse on both, and watched a number of videos from people doing a great deal of thinking about them.
My enthusiasm has merely waned.
The mediocre book contains a few philosophical nuggets in his flashbacks to Mr. Dubois’ class. That’s why I like it.
I’m surprised people get so het up over one of Heinlein’s young-adult books.
Though I’d like to see Tunnel In The Sky done as a movie.
I’d be terrified what it would be turned into in the modern day.
Moon is a Harsh Mistress I don’t see working as a movie, but could probably be done as a decent series.
True, I should have specified that I’d like to see such a movie made by someone who actually respected the book.
MiaHM could _maybe_ be a series.
There is a spec script on the intertubes for Mistress. It was written by one of the main writers of Buffy. I hated the first third of it, thought it destroyed the story. The last 2/3rds however, were dead on. The first 3rd makes it more of a general rebellion than a libertarian rebellion.
All in all, better than you could hope for.
“Where he’s trained by the fucking Kurgan from Highlander..” Not done yet but I love it so far.
Found the book while rummaging through the basement. Should give it another read.
I’ve been told that the director intentionally omitted and ignored all of Heinlein’s themes and reduced it to, well, that.
Maybe someone will redo it. I’d like to see History and Moral Philosophy seriously instead of treating it like a joke.
It was my understanding Verhoven didn’t read the book at all. So, if true, it would have been easy to ignore the contents.
And I thought they were trained by Lex Luthor. 😛
Or was it Mr Krabs?
Seriously, Clancy Brown’s IMDB page is a mile long (298 Actor credits)
They did jump suits in the fourth installment. Still didn’t get them even close to being right. Great book.
I never saw the satire. And I didn’t need it to enjoy it.
The only good bug is a dead bug.
I don’t know if kids these days can truly appreciate the absurdity of Oberstgruppenfurher Doogie Howser.
I think Starship Troopers comes up less than Denise Richards.
Who makes other things come up. Also, Dina Meyer’s tits.
24 year old Denise Richards was something else.
I just rewatched Wild Things and yes, Denise Richards in her prime was something else. Great popcorn flick that.
I watched this as well and I came to a very different conclusion based on the book and movie. I do like this guy’s content, but I am curious what definition of ‘Facism’ he is using. But the idea that you could choose to serve the state and thus earn the franchise is pretty inconsistent with my understanding of the ideology. People were expected to serve the state and if they did not they could expect to be punished. Given the fact that Johnny’s parents were depicted as very wealthy but did not have the franchise, it would seem that in the STroopers universe, it would seem that it was entirely possible to live a prosperous and successful without citizenship.
Damn, I thought ol’ Blighty had ridded themselves of anyone with a bit of sand.
OT: on the European Super League. News reports that Chelsea are preparing documentation to request their withdrawal from the plan.
Its going to fall apart. The players and managers all* oppose it. They breakaway teams were not going to be allowed to stay in their domestic leagues. That wasn’t a valid option.
*for some level of all
I am glad its falling apart, but I kind of wanted them to try and fail and see Liverpool have to restart at level 17 of the pyramid, I think that is the lowest league in the Liverpool area – Liverpool Old Boys League Division Four. I am sure they would be back to the top within two decades.
Update, looks like as of 2021, the lowest is Division Three. Maybe covid took some teams down. So level 16.
Whole teams flopped but didn’t get a foul raised?
I’m starting to wonder if the whole thing was designed to give them leverage to force further changes to the Champions League structure that UEFA is talking about. Some of the English teams and maybe two of the Italian teams have not been regularly getting into the UCL and I think they want to change that.
The whole “Big 6” in England is about money more than winning. Out of curiosity, I ran some numbers a few weeks back. Since the PL came into existence for 1992-3, there have been a total of 84 top-level trophies (PL, FA Cup, League Cup). Of those 84, Arsenal, Liverpool, Man City, Man U, and Chelsea have won 67 of them (of course Arsenal haven’t won the PL since 2004 and Man U not since 2013).
Of the other 17 trophies, Leicester have won 3, Blackburn 2, and Spurs 2.
Everton has 1, an FA Cup in the mid-90s.
This is why everyone has been making fun of Tottenham for trying to sneak in this way. At least the other 5 have a legit argument.
I want to see the oil money dry up and these teams wind up like Leeds 20 years ago.
And Chelsea should have been driven into penury for what they did to Anders Frisk.
I hear that the project is shutting down.
So the EU of soccer is turning into the actual EU?
Well played.
‘“They’re a good family and they’re calling for peace and tranquility no matter what that verdict is,” Biden said. “I’m praying the verdict is the right verdict. I think it’s overwhelming, in my view. I wouldn’t say that unless the jury was sequestered now.”’
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Feds-weighing-how-to-respond-after-verdict-in-16113576.php
It is overwhelming – the corpse would be a corpse with or without the cop on his shoulders.
Whether he was going to die or not is largely irrelevant. What is relevant is what Chauvin’s own actions contributed or caused that death.
A paramedic deciding to put a plastic bag over the head of an OD victim on their way to a hospital is still murder. So would be if Chauvin walked up and shot Floyd in the initial encounter.
In this instance, it’s pretty hard to disentangle the impact of Chauin’s actions from Floyd consuming massive amounts of fentanyl.
This. There are no good guys in this story. That is why it was chosen as a cause celebre.
As my grandfather would say “you cant stir the shit without getting it on you.”
What the prog-fascists are doing, though, is using the court of public opinion to conflate shithead with murderer.
Chauvin may be a shithead who belongs nowhere near a badge. Chauvin may have abused his position as a cop. Hell, Chauvin may have been a racist. That’s not why he’s on trial, and that’s (hopefully) not what will be used by the jury to determine a verdict.
Putting a shithead in prison for a murder he didn’t commit doesn’t fix the policing system.
Honestly, seeing the full video, Chauvin was more patient with Floyd than most cops I’ve interacted with would have been. Floyd’s retarded ass should have just been shoved into the backseat of that car like any other perp. Even coaxing him into it with promises of cracking the window and putting the air on for him was more than most cops would have done.
And that’s all after he’s kicked cops fighting to get in. And the knee on the neck came after he continued to kick at them once he was being taken to the ground.
I think their idea of the policing problem and our idea of the policing problem are two different things entirely….in fact I would say they are exact opposites.
It may be closer than you thought, Suthen. Libertarians think that decriminalizing victimless crimes will make policing better. Prog-fascists think that decriminalizing violent crime will make policing better. Po-tay-to, to-mah-to.
Of all of the recent MN police escapades (Noor, Potter), Chauvin is the only one who didn’t kill his victim with a gun. Depending on how the jury interprets the autopsy, he didn’t kill Floyd at all. Yet he is facing the most serious charges.
Chauvin was more patient with Floyd than most cops I’ve interacted with would have been.
To be fair, they would have beaten you for your incessant yammering about firsting.
The medical examiner’s testimony didn’t show cause or contribution. I wouldn’t even vote manslaughter after that.
^this
I have no pity for Chauvin or Floyd. Race aside, there is a growing backlash against police immunity for criminal acts. When police abuse their arrest privileges’, the consequences should be much more severe than a non-LEO committing the same crime.
I have been ignoring the trial, so I have missed most of the details.
The little I have seen indicates that Floyd would have died as a result of the overdose if the police had just left him lying on the ground.
For Chauvin’s actions to be criminal, he either had to hasten that inevitable death or prevent someone from intervening to stop that death.
Just my generally-useless opinion.
True enough, but in this case the clinical cause of death (asphyxiation) is a risk of multiple things that were going on at the same time, including the drug overdose, being prone on the ground with your hands behind your back, and having pressure on your back or neck. With respect to the first one, the degree of risk is increased by the size of the drug overdose. With respect to the last two, the degree of risk is increased by the length of time and the pressure applied. Other confounding variables include pre-existing conditions.
Trying to boil all that down to binary vote is a stone cold bitch. Theoretically, “beyond a reasonable doubt” makes close calls a not guilty verdict, but often the close call is whether there is enough doubt to say its beyond a reasonable doubt.
Did Chauvin “cause” the asphyxiation, if FLoyd had enough fentanyl on board to asphyxiate regardless? Traditionally, “but-for” causation is the weakest and doesn’t get you far at all, and in this case it would be hard to say the prosecution could even say that “but for” the arrest, Floyd wouldn’t have died of asphyxiation.
Did Chauvin “contribute” to the asphyxiation? Likely, given that there were two separate things he did that pose a risk of asphyxiation. Did he contribute enought to support a criminal verdict? *insert shrug emoji*
I’m going to take back everything bad I’ve said about Biden. If he watched all the testimony, heard the judge’s instructions, and determined what the “right” verdict is, he deserves more credit than I’ve given him.
Gropey Joe can’t even remember what the accusation was by the time he finished the paragraph.
It would be impressive. I’ve not followed all the testimony, but this has got to be a hard one for any honest juror. There is a lot of bad evidence against Chauvin. But there is also a lot of doubt thrown in with the Fentynal, etc.
So what happens on an appeal when the President has come out saying he’s praying for your conviction?
::glances at comments just above:: Drugs fall out of his ass?
You can file appeals that get rejected?
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2021/02/19/bergdahl-files-lawsuit-claiming-undue-command-influence-by-trump-mccain/
UCMJ does not = civilian courts, but I never overlook the power of the courts to rule based on the FYTW clause.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/04/20/3d-printed-survival-gun-chassis/
I dig the idea.
“….Amish blacksmith shoes our horses. He’s short and kinda wiry, but his handshake will get your attention.”
This. Once upon a time the two guys you didnt get in a fight with were the baker and the blacksmith.
I know a welder that is thin as a rail but his grip is like a vise. That guy can whip anyone with one hand.
“Once upon a time the two guys you didnt get in a fight with were the baker and the blacksmith.”
I’d add the candlestick-maker, after seeing what happened in the conservatory.
I made this same comment some years back and someone else added the candlestick maker to the list then as well.
I wasn’t there, I have an alibi.
Great minds must think alike.
“Never get into a knife-fight with the town butcher”
Like this?
***SIGH!!!*** I hope this doesn’t give my employer any ideas: https://www.whio.com/news/local/montgomery-co-prosecutor-makes-covid-19-vaccine-mandatory-prosecutors-office-employees/AKDLVLNCOBGEZH7EN76DURPJO4/
I hope someone sues them and wins.
That is an office full of lawyers.
If it’s mandatory, they assume all liability for employees who are injured?
Why stop there? Force their family members to get it too or anyone else living in their home.
The vax does not automatically prevent you from getting covid, therefore to minimize risk all their close contacts must have it too.
Why stop with covid? School immunization requirements should be extended to the entire family as well.
Pricks for everyone!
https://youtu.be/jvEYU5Bk37U
⬅️
We just got word we get a $400 dollar bonus if we are fully vaccinated by June. Thought for sure it was going to be the stick rather than the carrot, so I’ve already done it.
There’s been some rumblings that the County workers may need to be vaccinated to go back to work up here. They’re also pushing to make Juneteenth a paid county holiday.
I am not touching the goddamned thing. The world has gone insane. What bothers me most is that we have seen all of this before in multiple marxist regimes and yet here we are.
I have to imagine that the CEOs of Pfizer and Moderna are praying every night that there are no long term effects from the vaccines. Because while they may be shielded legally, the mob might string them up in the square.
It is hard for me to imagine that there won’t be any long term effects from what is essentially poorly tested gene therapy.
Who knows, they may have gotten lucky. That said, I don’t gamble my life or my family’s lives on “who knows”, especially when the alternative is a mild respiratory infection.
We thought the people would revolt against the masks after 2-3 months, too.
There’s a core group of anti-vaxxers. They’ve been around for a while. Until 2020 nobody was wearing masks in the West; there was no dissident or conspiracy theory culture against masks.
I doubt the CEO’s have anything to worry about, or else there would have been a bunch of governor shaped tree ornaments already.
I’m more concerned that the mob is going to come after those of us who refused the vaccine.
I’ve talked about the risk-benefit with a couple non-work colleagues who are very vocally pro-vax and Covid-hysteric. I could see the fear in their eyes when I explained the risks and minimal benefit of the vaccine.
I think a large part of the motivation in shaming “vax hesitancy” is a fear in these people that they needlessly put their lives at risk taking it and want everyone to share in that misery if something goes terribly wrong.
I ain’t getting it. My employer will not require it.
GF told her employer that they’re going to have to fire her if they mandate it.
People need to hold their ground if they don’t want it. I’ve already seen multiple people get pressured into it.
My son’s coach just let him know that all college athletes are going to be forced to take it or they won’t be eligible to play. August 1st deadline. Regular students can claim a religious or medical exemption, but if you want to play sanctioned sport you have to get it. Wife and I are pissed.
“Some time in the future, most of humanity has been wiped out because of a vaccination thought to be safe. The only remaining humans are those who were imprisoned for refusing the vaccine. Behind bars, they cannot escape, for those who held the keys are dead…”
I like it. Put it on kickstarter.
Except all the unvaccinated get put in a walled off reserve or some such.
“Did you or somebody you know receive the Pfizer or Moderna Covid-19 vaccine between December 15, 2020 and November 4, 2022? If so, you may be entitled to money. The National COVID Relief Administration has recently authorized the release of 14 trillion dollars as part of a settlement of claims for covidosis victims. Get the money you’re owed now! Call the law firm of SMITH, SMITH, and MechaHitler at 888-945-3835 to learn more.
I thought they couldn’t be sued…?
Orgasms all around for the malthusians.
The last 5 years are so creepy I can hardly believe it. The previous 8 years were creepy as hell but I did not imagine it could get so much worse. Ok, maybe the previous 20 years.
I thought the silent majority of people were more sensible than this. Apparently it is easy to scare people and scared people do really stupid things.
That sounds a little similar to NewsFlesh without the vaccine refusers imprisoned.
I thought they couldn’t be sued…?
They can’t, it’s a government benefits program. ?
Oh, I was quite sure it’s been done, and done better than I could ever do it.
Reading comprehension #fail.
I think you have a point, and I’m certain that there are some tribal instincts at play that are bad for the independent minded.
But if serious side effects start showing up, the backlash will redirect almost immediately.
There are side effects from oral polio vaccine, in a very small number (comparable to the numbers for the J&J clots), and it’s still used.
Very familiar, to say the least.
I don’t work for the county, but it’s entertaining watching the local news try to decide which way to spin this. Are the [union] workers standing up for themselves against the mean government, are are they being requested to do their duty as front line heroes who interact with the public?
According to numerous media reports the Minnesota jury has reached a verdict in the trial of former police officer Derek Chauvin. Fourteen days of trial and approximately 9 hours of jury deliberation (last night and this morning).
The verdict will be announced momentarily….
What time is sunset?
Per the article on my local news: “The verdict will be read in court between 3:30 p.m. and 4 p.m. local time, according to court officials.” So between 4:30 & 5 EDT.
They must be waiting to add a verdict link.
/chuckle.
In that sense Dillon knew that a one-on-one fight wouldn’t be fair.
I don’t buy this. It sort of reminds me of the Unforgiven retort from William Munny to Little Bill’s objection that he had just shot an unarmed man – “Then he should have armed himself before decorating his saloon with my friend.” The fairness of the fight isn’t a function of either’s ability to inflict more damage, but of who started it.