A thought on housing prices

by | Aug 30, 2022 | Libertarianism, Markets, Musings, Regulation | 234 comments

People like housing. It is where they keep their stuff and escape inclement weather in order to watch Netflix. So they tend to want some of it. This is a problem these days in many places. Certainly most places in Europe where people want to live. There may even be a place or two in the US where real estate prices are a wee bit on the high side. It is, I would say somewhat complex with multiple issues at play. But I notice, on various political sides, the usual temptation to oversimplify and find one unified cause for everything, and it surprises me to see this with people that can be insightful in general.

In Europe, at least the sides are pretty clear. Libertarian right blames not enough building and NIMBY. The conservative right blames immigration. Some in both camps of the right also blame money printing and manipulated interest rates, and things like affordable housing mandates for larger developments. The socialists blame private property. The social democrat left blames greedy developers and not enough social housing.

The right, as usual, is more broadly ehmā€¦ right. The socialists are the most wrong. Blaming greedy developers is rather silly, as it seems the greed waxes and wanes based on other economic factors. But I would say the cause is a combination of factors and not a single one.

New real estate in old Bucharest

In general it is mostly correct that increased supply fixers a lot of issues, and that nimby is out of control these day. Here I would also venture some criticism with the example of Romania. In 2004-2008 period, Romania had one of the most epic bubbles in history when it comes to housing. Maybe not quite as bad, but current prices are outrageous relative to incomes and I am amazed on how much not that great apartments in not that great areas go for, at least in a few large cities. We got 100 sq meter 2 bedroom apartments going for 500k in the more upscale developments. Though most go for round 200k in new developments and you will find some at around 100k. US dollars that is. Given the average wage is like 12k after tax per year.

Romania is not really a target for immigration, and has large emigration, so the population is dropping quite fast. So there is 0 blame on external immigration here for housing costs. Although it is a poor country (relative to the EU at least) with an economy very polarized around a few large urban centers, so there is internal movement which can be functionally equivalent to immigration. NIMBY is not really an issue as a lot build with little regard to regulations, and the infrastructure leading to good neighborhoods ā€“ streets and schools and such ā€“ is lagging behind. There are no affordable housing mandates and more onerous regs can be bypassed with a bribe or two.

My conclusion to this is supply takes time. Even when a bunch is poorly built and without the needed additional infrastructure, like in Romania, it takes time. So on this topic, the truth is in the middle, yes you need more housing, but large population movement puts significant pressure on housing stock till new one gets built. While one cannot do much about the internal movement unless one is China, unrestrained external immigration can clearly exacerbate the demand side.

I would say the money supply / credit is also quite clearly a factor because otherwise many people would not afford to pay the kind of prices that are paid. Money supply also leads, I would say, to some Cantillon effect issues, with money going unevenly towards housing and with certain large rich investment funds getting lots of cheap credit to buy massive amounts of housing.

Of course, the time it takes for the supply is extremely dependent on ease of building. And whatever the demand increase, any increase in supply makes things better. So blaming the NIMBY is also broadly correct. Even if you end immigration, there will still be movement inside the country. London and Paris and Bucharest will still attract many more people than housing availability without new building. And there is clear correlation between places with lots of zoning and difficult planning process and very expensive housing. So obviously, if it is impossible or takes years to get the permission to build, many people will stop trying and stop building. This will be a massive constraint on supply which means the area will not handle even modest population movement.

The NIMBY is enhanced by the ā€œwe need to maintain old buildings due to history / neighborhood character/etcā€ crowd which will also have the effect of not only no new housing, but the existing ones being shitty. England is a good example, the housing derriĆØre because it is almost impossible for the owner to improve the house due to ruining historical character or something.

So what causes the problem? NIMBY and easy credit and immigration somewhat. What is the solution? As I assume you have not forgotten you are on a libertarian website and our little chats are mostly for our own entertainment, I assume you realize I cannot give a solution because, as in most things, there isnā€™t one. There are too many political interests for there to be. But as in most things, end money supply inflation, end silly government regulations and yes, very un-libertarian, but keep in mind open borders do not help the issue.

About The Author

PieInTheSky

PieInTheSky

Mind your own business you nosy buggers

234 Comments

  1. UnCivilServant

    We got 100 sq meter 2 bedroom apartments going for 500k in the more upscale developments. Though most go for round 200k in new developments and you will find some at around 100k. US dollars that is. Given the average wage is like 12k after tax per year.

    I assume those are purchase price for ownership of that apartment rather than some brutal rent.

  2. Rat on a train

    very un-libertarian, but keep in mind open borders do not help the issue
    I have no objections to controlled borders. Libertarians aren’t anarchists.

    • Certified Public Asshat

      Dave Smith makes these arguments all the time (pro-border).

    • EvilSheldon

      Yes we are.

    • hayeksplosives

      I am not open border because the incoming masses are generally anti-libertarian so I consider border control to be a form of self defense.

    • prolefeed

      Less constraints on movement of both people and money fixes most problems. The vast majority of the people who built the housing development I live in spoke Spanish as a primary language. Crimping the supply of workers is both unlibertarian and a bad idea.

      And I’d you’re really anti-free-movement, consider how fucked the economy would be if you needed government permission to leave your state or city, which permission might not be forthcoming if you exhibited WrongThink.

  3. Not Adahn

    People like housing. It is where they keep their stuff and escape inclement weather in order to watch Netflix.

    Good line.

    • Animal

      I think it was George Carlin who described a house as “all your stuff with a cover over it.”

      • Mojeaux

        Fun fact: High fashion has usually followed architecture.

        Baroque buildings? Furnishings? Elaborate clothes.

        Confused, grotesque buildings? Furnishings? Shit clothes.

      • Not Adahn

        I had a friend studying interior decorating who said that new colors are first introduced to cars, and make it to home furnishings last.

      • UnCivilServant

        That sounds like they’re ripping the seats out of old junkers for use as the couch.

      • Rat on a train

        avocado appliances and orange carpet?

      • Mojeaux

        I read an article that I can’t find now bemoaning the lack of color in cars and interior design. Most cars are black, a shit-ton of them are white, but few are any other color. This also goes for the stark white kitchens and greige interior paint. No colorful houses, either.

      • Nephilium

        There’s several houses here in Cleveland that are painted the same shade of bright purple. I’m not sure if it’s the same owner who got it in bulk, or if someone did it, and someone else decided they liked it.

      • Fourscore

        Prince was not well received in Chanhassen with his choice of home color

      • Mojeaux

        His house looks like an industrial park complex.

      • R.J.

        MOPAR enthusiasts, clearly.

      • Not Adahn

        I have no idea wtf is up with the current resurgence of orange.

      • hayeksplosives

        I am not a fan of the new car paint schemes that look like primer gray or primer tanā€”no depth, no metallic sparkleā€”with a coat of gloss over it.

        It looks like they forgot the step where they were supposed to apply paint.

      • Rat on a train

        no depth, no metallic sparkle
        I remember the era of electric blues and sparkling colors.

      • slumbrew

        Our place is Revel Blue with cream trim.

        Places are fairly colorful around here.

        Kitchen-wise, yes, I’d go mostly white on a remodel, since I’d want it to be “classic” vs. fashionable. My wife’s aunt has all this glass tile in her kitchen that already looks dated.

      • Rat on a train

        Mojeaux, that is cringe. I guess the potential buyers either like it or can afford to change it. I assume some of the crazy rich would change something they liked simply to make it personal.

      • Certified Public Asshat

        I mourn all the time how lame car colors are these days.

        Good green colors are at least making a comeback.

      • UnCivilServant

        So you are looking for a car that could pass as a 70’s fridge.

      • Certified Public Asshat

        No

      • UnCivilServant

        Unrelated to the color, the look of that car made me laugh. Something about its proportions.

      • Certified Public Asshat

        I like the new Broncos but the two door model is a little…well, little.

      • Toxteth O'Grady

        Green cars, mmm. I love any colorful car paint, even purple. Maybe not pink.

      • UnCivilServant

        Okay, so no Pink Cadillac for Toxteth

      • Toxteth O'Grady

        maybe a ’59?

      • Not Adahn

        My bedroom is painted this which of course looks nothing like what’s being shown on the LCD monitor.

      • UnCivilServant

        What makes it ‘Honorable’?

      • slumbrew

        My Revel Blue link looks right to me, but I’ve got a fancy-pants iMac, so I’m going to assume my color accuracy is a bit better than average.

      • Not Adahn

        What makes it ā€˜Honorableā€™?

        You can’t lie in a room painted that color. My ego has taken such a beating since I started taking dates there.

      • slumbrew

        “I’ve never had this happen before!”

      • Necron 99

        My wife and I just built a new house on our land. I gave her free reign on colors, and she went neutral grays on the inside, and Jamaican Bay blue with white trim on the outside. I have gotten a lot of complements on the exterior color. This is North Texas so coastal color is not a thing here, in a landscape dominated with brick ranch style houses we built a blue farmhouse.

      • Seguin

        Nice. I can’t wait to finally find a place in Denton Co. and start building my dream plot.

      • Necron 99

        My wife is from Denton, I dislike the city but the rest of the county is nice. We are in Palo Pinto County

      • Seguin

        I’ve always loved the Baker Hotel. Heard they were renovating it too. I actually need to head that way pretty soon, I want to see the site of the Brazos Reservation.

      • Seguin

        You would think they would increase the palette on car exteriors. They’re already hamstrung on exterior styling because regulations are forcing most cars to have the same shape, right done to how high the hood is. This is why every car you see has all this weird sculpting on the sides – it’s one of the only ways to visually differentiate between models and brands. There’s probably some chemical outgassing certification that companies have to go through to get a paint approved by the EPA.

        Also RJ, I found this article. It might be fun for you to try on your RPi. https://skmp.dev/blog/anbox-rpi4/

      • UnCivilServant

        They probably focus-grouped the color options to death so they could justify buying as few colors as possible so as to not have unsold inventory should a hue turn out unpopular.

      • Seguin

        True. But that didn’t stop them in the 60s-80s. But it might just be thinning margins and MBAs being the culprit.

      • R.J.

        Heh. Yesterday the cheap SD card snuffed it. I have a good quality one I need to reformat for it this weekend.

      • Seguin

        Beautiful color.

      • EvilSheldon

        I can see that. Architecture, art, and fashion, have all become the same repulsive circle-jerk. By, of, and for the skinsuited cultural critics.

      • Mojeaux

        There’s a line in The Devil Wears Prada where she explains that all colors are decided for you, probably years in advance, which I found to be true then when I was looking for red upholstery fabric, but not so much now when you can order whacky upholstery colors, but you aren’t going to see them on the floor.

        But dammit, I got my red chairs.

      • UnCivilServant

        I had a number of counter arguments to those claims (having seen the clip out of context, since I haven’t seen the whole movie)

        …but I’ve forgotten them.

      • Toxteth O'Grady

        UCS, you aren’t missing much.

      • Toxteth O'Grady

        Those Pantone trend-crammers…

      • Penguin

        I take it you’re not a fan of brutalism.

      • UnCivilServant

        Giant slabs of concrete? What’s not to … tolerate begrudgingly because complaining gets you sent to gulag?

      • Mojeaux

        šŸ¤®

      • Mojeaux

        On the other hand, I do love me some Bauhaus.

      • EvilSheldon

        Not usually, but Brutalism can work given the right location and the right building.

        Most of the modern architecture of the last 30 years would make a Brutalist gag with disgust.

      • Pine_Tree

        “Meaning comes from context.” Well, so does “fit”, when it comes to architecture.

        I’m very much a history/architecture geek, and despise all the stuff you’d expect me to despise. It’d be easy to dismiss all Brutalism, but I can’t honestly do that. In the right context, it can be really good. The problem with so much of it (as is often the case) is that it was built to be DELIBERATELY offensive to the context. It pretends to be all modern and edgy and crap, but is really a childish “Look At Me” writ large.

      • Tundra

        Wasn’t it a reaction to Stalin’s excesses? A lot of Soviet stuff was gorgeous until Kruschev.

      • Seguin

        I just read an article on that! Yeah, it was really elaborate. They had some kind of socialist constructivist baroque going on in the early 50’s.

      • Pine_Tree

        I’ve heard that, but I personally see it as an outworking of the postwar Socialist end-of-the-Empire darkness in the UK. Lots of pieces I could pick out associated with that. To over psychologize, they were seeing Brittania rapidly crumble to (relative) irrelevance in the new world order, and this was part of the self-destruction incited by that.

      • slumbrew

        built to be DELIBERATELY offensive to the context

        Boston City Hall wave “hi”

      • Penguin

        I’ve been listening to (mostly) 60’s rock this morning, so is semi-relevant.

      • mindyourbusiness

        Homemade sin created by unskilled labor.

      • Toxteth O'Grady

        Pine: Paternoster Square around St. Paul’s. Ugh. My 1930s London travel guide makes me weep (OK, not quite).

      • Bobarian LMD

        All you stuff is shit, and all my shit is stuff.

    • EvilSheldon

      From the dedthred:

      (Re: CZ Tac Sport 2 in .40) They have! SKU 91222 is the .40S&W Tactical Sport 2, or 91260 for the fancy orange one.

      • Not Adahn

        So, the green is $400 more for a thumb rest?

        I’m assuming I can get the right side safety extended.

      • EvilSheldon

        Yeah. I would personally take that $400 and pay Cajun Gun Works for a trigger job, but that’s me.

      • Sean

        šŸ™‚

      • Not Adahn

        Also, their website doesn’t show a left-handed variant (or one in .40)

      • Not Adahn

        I meant the green. No idea why that would even be a discrepancy.

        https://cz-usa.com/product/cz-ts-2-racing-green/

        And I’m assuming that at some point there will be a TS2 Orange. I think the TSO is built off of the original TS frame.

      • Not Adahn

        Their “discontinued” section makes me sad.

    • Nephilium

      You can’t destroy the Earth! That’s where I keep all my stuff!

  4. Not Adahn

    A penthouse in a building like your pic in Austin would be WAY more than $600k.

    • UnCivilServant

      An additional penalty for making the mistake of living in Austin?

      • Not Adahn

        Living in Austin is not a mistake. It’s actually rather wonderful, as long as you take precautions against incineration.

      • Not Adahn

        But the specific reason I mentioned Austin is that sort of architecture exists there.

  5. Not Adahn

    We got 100 sq meter 2 bedroom apartments

    What? Oh, coffins take up less room than beds so the rooms can be a lot smaller, I see.

    • rhywun

      1,076 sq. ft. is a decent size for an urban area. My 2-bedroom is smaller than that but decent by NYC standards.

    • Rat on a train

      1,076 square feet is larger than the average apartment in the US.

      • slumbrew

        It’s larger than my condo.

      • UnCivilServant

        It’s the size of my house.

      • Mojeaux

        I had a 750 ft2 1-bedroom apartment that was nicely spacious for me and my needs. It was cute and adorable.

      • rhywun

        I think mine is around 800 and it’s more than enough for just me.

  6. Bobarian LMD

    Added issue is the cost of building materials post-COVID is onerous. Rebuilding my house right now would cost 25% more than it would sell for.

  7. Mojeaux

    Nice article, Pie. I think you captured the Venn diagram of the one-issue complainers nicely.

    I like that new apartment building. However, I probably wouldn’t like it juxtaposed with the “old” architecture. I just really don’t like the cognitive dissonance.

    We have a federal courthouse here in downtown KC that looks very modern, but was designed to fit in with the 1920s art deco skyscrapers. The more “modern” looking part they faced AWAY from the skyscrapers. They did a good job.

    Then there’s this. Looks like a construction trailer.

    • UnCivilServant

      We need to reign in these architects of agony.

    • Nephilium

      I was looking for pictures/street view of it, but it doesn’t look like I can find one. There’s an area in Cleveland called Ohio City, that’s currently going through gentrification and rebuilding. So it’s got an eclectic mix of new and old architecture. One area has an apartment building that’s black and white cubes, with some of the areas jutting out (not just a balcony, but the building extends out). I like the look of it, but there are those who hate it.

      This same area has a parking garage with three options to get down from the second floor. Stairs, elevator, or slide.

      • UnCivilServant

        Oh those ugly-ass pieces of shit are popping up all over the place. They come in more colors than just black and white though.

        I predict maintenance nightmare and unlivable structures within 20 years (being generous, 5 if I’m honest)

      • Nephilium

        I much prefer that building then the soulless narrow townhouses that have been popping up in other neighborhoods.

      • UnCivilServant

        I’m going to say that there are few buildings put up since the end of the Art Deco era whose style appeals to me. In art and architecture, the world just lost its mind.

      • Nephilium

        I do have a picture of the parking garage slide. There’s a big teeter totter and splash pad outside the view of the camera as well.

    • PieInTheSky

      I like that new apartment building – I don’t really but I like little modern architecture

      • Mojeaux

        It has a bit of a midcentury modern atomic-age-ish vibe, which I like.

    • rhywun

      Buying an apartment

      I call that a “condo”.

      • PieInTheSky

        lets go English and say flat

      • rhywun

        To me a “flat” is an dwelling that takes up a whole floor – like my last apartment. Could be owned or rented.

        Maybe the Brits make that distinction, not sure.

      • grrizzly

        No, a flat (UK) = an apartment (US). An apartment is a unit in a building that is rented, A condo is owned. All units in an apartment building are rented. Units in a condo tower (complex) are owned by individuals, some of them maybe rented by the owners. Does it make a condo an apartment?

    • PieInTheSky

      I still donā€™t understand if they all have monthly fees for building maintenance and such. – generally yes

      Whoā€™s responsible when the elevator needs service? – most buildings have someone to handle those things. in old commie buildings is one of the residents who wants the honor of being building president and collects money from common stuff. Most newer buildings have someone hired for the purpose but there are stipulations in the contracts for common expenses and there are residents meetings where people can vote on stuff. basically each building has something like a US HOA

      • Sean

        Thank you

    • JaimeRoberto (carnitas/spicy salsa)

      When we owned an apartment in EU-land we paid fees to a management company to maintain things like the exterior, the roof, the stairwell, etc. The mafia husband of our neighbor handled security free of charge.

  8. KK the Porcine Pearl-Eater

    we need to maintain old buildings due to history / neighborhood character/etcā€ crowd which will also have the effect of not only no new housing, but the existing ones being shitty.

    This is a problem in Old Town Alexandria Virginia too. Who wants a $2-million 200-year-old townhouse that you’re not “allowed” to renovate? And if you do under the table renovations, you’re fucked in reselling.

    • Mojeaux

      And if you do under the table renovations, youā€™re fucked in reselling.

      “Is this permitted?” No. “Is that permitted?” No.

      • KK the Porcine Pearl-Eater

        Yep. And even if you follow the rules, the contractors and materials you are “allowed” to use are extremely limited. No laminate floors for YOU!

      • Mojeaux

        If you have to put laminate floors in a house like that, you can’t afford the house.

      • KK the Porcine Pearl-Eater

        Lots of people opt for laminate for maintenance purposes (like pets). But you wouldn’t be able to use it in Old Town historic houses for any rooms. Not even a bathroom or kitchen. You need to use period-equivalent materials. That also means no tile sheets, either (the kind that are bound together with wire).

        Bottom line is you have to be a stupid fuck or have $ to burn to want a historic Old Town house.

      • Mojeaux

        That also means no tile sheets, either (the kind that are bound together with wire).

        Right. Just see if you can get someone to lay down a mini hex floor without mesh.

      • PieInTheSky

        then again who would want laminate floors ? hard wood is best. or marble.

      • Mojeaux

        Marble isn’t the easiest to maintain. If you’re not going with wood, go with terrazzo.

      • UnCivilServant

        But the classiest tombs have marble. Or granite.

      • Nephilium

        Hard wood usually isn’t the best option for kitchens or bathrooms. I’m still happy with the hardwood we put in back in 2020 through most of the house though.

      • Tundra

        Or basement. I have used various laminates for years and they are great. My last house had hardwood throughout the whole main level. Looked beautiful, but it was tough with dogs, kids and real life.

      • Certified Public Asshat

        We got 100 sq meter 2 bedroom apartments going for 500k in the more upscale developments.

        Is this related at all to marble floors.

      • PieInTheSky

        location location location. And in Bucharest it matter the traffic is murder

      • Raven Nation

        From previous thread. Looks like the main reason Parker got canned was the comments he made in the post-match press conference regarding failure to build a better team

        Also, Dundee United lost 9-0 on the weekend and their manager got canned too. Of course, they also lost 7-0 in a Euro qualifier a few weeks back.

    • Certified Public Asshat

      And then on the other end of the extreme, Baltimore.

  9. The Late P Brooks

    The NIMBY is enhanced by the ā€œwe need to maintain old buildings due to history / neighborhood character/etcā€ crowd which will also have the effect of not only no new housing, but the existing ones being shitty.

    I find it amusing to see strict “preservationists” erecting regulatory barriers to preserve the character of areas which evolved into their fabulous coolness precisely because there were no rules to prevent it at the time.

    • Seguin

      So THAT’s what that’s called! All of the old Whataburgers were in that style. I miss that. :/

      • Mojeaux

        Yes, very atomic age.

    • Toxteth O'Grady

      Come out to L.A.!

  10. slumbrew

    We got 100 sq meter 2 bedroom apartments going for 500k

    100 mĀ² =~ 1,076 sqft

    ~ $465 sqft

    Let’s check some local Zillow listings…

    $932 price/sqft
    $834 price/sqft
    $974 price/sqft
    $809 price/sqft
    $719 price/sqft

    • PieInTheSky

      i would assume the average wage is more than 15k US per year after tax there

      • UnCivilServant

        $16k at most, probably.

      • slumbrew

        True.

  11. PieInTheSky

    what annoys me about many new built apartments in Bucharest is how the interior is partitioned. sometimes it makes no sense. Often you go from the common building hallway into the living room. My old apartment as a small hallway where you keep shoes and coats and such which separates the living room from the stairwell.

    Also some older apartment have a pantry or a small storage room or something. New ones have no storage.

    I think it is decided in part to be cheap. But in part I don;t think the architects know hoe to make best use of space.

    One thing for example it has become fashionable for the master bedroom to have its own bathroom. This works when you have plenty of space not in a 85 sq meter 2 bed place.

    • PieInTheSky

      another example was a duplex penthouse which on the top floor it had a 40 sq meter master bedroom and a 50 sq meter balcony and a bathroom, and on the lower floor it had the living room, kitchen and two small bedrooms. I would definitely want the large balcony adjacent to the kitchen not the master bedroom, you know I could eat there get a drink or coffee without going one floor lower on the stairs. anyhoo

      • UnCivilServant

        When you live in a place like that, You have the servants bring you your food

    • rhywun

      Often you go from the common building hallway into the living room

      Yeah, I don’t like that. My first NYC apartment was like that and even worse… the bathroom was off the living room.

      I have to pass BR 2 and kitchen before I get to my LR now.

  12. Tundra

    Thanks, Pie.

    What are mortgage rates there? Does Romania us the same central bank fuckery?

    • PieInTheSky

      Does Romania us the same central bank fuckery – obviously

      What are mortgage rates there – 5-6% ish per year, but about half of that is a variable part which may change over the lifetime of the credit. also you need 15% down

      If I wanted to buy a 2000k US apartment and put 15% down and took a 25 year mortgage at this time my monthly payment would be 1050 dollars

      • PieInTheSky

        200k as in 200000USD as in 1000000RON

      • Tundra

        Gotcha. Thanks.

  13. robc

    Not to reduce it to just one issue, but ZONING.

    Let people do with their private property what they want to do with it. If someone wants to buy a block of single family homes, bulldoze it, and build a 9-story condo tower, so be it (This is my recommendation for most of San Francisco).

    SF (San Fran) should look like Manhattan. Manhattan should look like SF (sci-fi).

    • robc

      A general rule of thumb is that a property is ready for gentrification/next increment of build when the building/land value ratio is between 2x and 3x. And generally the new building is 3x the value of the old one (so back up to 6x to 9x).

      Lots of San Francisco is at a 1:3 ratio. It is 3 increments behind.

      • UnCivilServant

        I still can’t understand how SanFran property can have such high price tags on it with all the negatives from the city.

      • robc

        More people want to live there than housing that exists.

        There are good jobs in the area and people don’t want to commute 1.5 hours each way.

        But, yeah, I don’t get it either.

      • UnCivilServant

        No job is worth putting up with San Fransisco.

      • rhywun

        The problem with SF is the people. They encourage the problems.

        That’s why I left.

      • JaimeRoberto (carnitas/spicy salsa)

        It’s a beautiful location. There’s lots to do. If you are young and single, it’s an exciting place to be.

      • PieInTheSky

        young and single and ehm joyous?

      • JaimeRoberto (carnitas/spicy salsa)

        Joyous or straight. There’s enough for everyone.

      • prolefeed

        I lived there. Anytime you have good weather, a major river flowing into the ocean with flat areas for a port, people are gonna wanna live there.

        That being said, the prices in SF have been flat for the last few years, versus doubling here in Austin, so the exodus of people is having a predictable effect.

    • UnCivilServant

      Oh, and, um, San Fransisco is built largely on sand. They have problems with towers tipping and threatening to fall down as a result.

      • robc

        I am pretty sure they could handle 9 stories.

      • UnCivilServant

        It’s possible, you can safely build skyscrapers on sand, it’s just more expensive (relative to building size) to get the foundation pilings in deep enough.

      • Certified Public Asshat

        They also have to be earthquake resistant.

      • UnCivilServant

        Which includes the fact that sand is prone to liquifaction during earthquakes.

        Why did we build there? Something about a harbor?

      • Toxteth O'Grady

        I thought that was just the Marina…

        SF Co. has the highest percentage of pre-war buildings in the state.

      • slumbrew

        I have an ongoing fascination with Millennium Tower

      • rhywun

        The $100 million retrofit project ā€“ partially paid for by taxpayers as part of a resolution of litigation

        OFFS!

      • JaimeRoberto (carnitas/spicy salsa)

        Even in Manhattan the height of the buildings limited by the underlying geology which varies by location on the island.

      • robc

        My understanding it is limited by century old technology. The limits no longer make sense.

      • rhywun

        Now that he mentions it, I do vaguely recall that is why Midtown is where it is. Instead of say, several miles south.

      • Pine_Tree

        Brooklyn?

      • Toxteth O'Grady

        heh.

    • Mojeaux

      Let people do with their private property what they want to do with it.

      Oh, you are going to love the 7p post.

      • robc

        In case I am not around…that is the only possible libertarian position.

      • Ted S.

        She opposes the land value tax?

      • robc

        [rolls for resistance]

      • Mojeaux

        I posed a question and took it to its logical conclusion. I am not going to try to defend a position because I can’t make a decision. Principle v pragmatism.

  14. pistoffnick

    Luxury! When I was young we lived in a cardboard box.

    • UnCivilServant

      You had a cardboard box?

      Jealous.

    • Seguin

      Man, hipsters would probably pay 500k for that. You’ve seen what they’ve done to the price of shipping containers.

      • Nephilium

        Hey now… I kind of like the Vegas Container Park. It took some convincing to get the girlfriend to go there, she didn’t quite grok the concept at first.

      • Mojeaux

        You never disappoint. My only regret is that I wasn’t faster.

      • Ted S.

        It’s just that I’m off work today. I go back in tomorrow, but have several days off over September.

      • Nephilium

        A wildly different box. He built it himself out of cement and rocks.

  15. kinnath

    Daily Quordle 218
    7ļøāƒ£5ļøāƒ£
    8ļøāƒ£6ļøāƒ£

    meh

  16. The Other Kevin

    So I guess Biden is making a televised address Thursday, and it’s supposed to be about Republicans destroying the country or something? That whole “unity” thing didn’t age well.

    • Sean

      Mid terms a comin’.

      • Tundra

        White supremacists must be rooted out and destroyed, comrade.

        I mean, Diversity Hire Karine came right out and called the MAGA folks fascists. Great strategy.

      • Scruffy Nerfherder

        They’re banking on getting the faithful out. They seem to have given up on the middle.

      • Ownbestenemy

        For a civil war reenactment? We going to be lining up battalions on the battlefields? Lol

      • Scruffy Nerfherder

        That glow is radioactive

      • Sean

        It’s so comically bad. RJ may repost it on a Thursday night.

      • R.J.

        Whut

    • Ownbestenemy

      He and the dems are working to isolate the “maga” wing of the party, whatever that is. The unity will be in the form of “conservative Republicans are my besties” while our chief executive labels the “maga” domestic terrorist attemlting to engage in a coup in not so many words.

    • Stinky Wizzleteats

      Kick the dog, get bitten by the dog, shoot the dogā€¦theyā€™re heightening the rhetoric and antagonizing people in hopes of a response. This isnā€™t by accident.

    • Lord Humungus

      Is the left looking for a Civil War? It certainly looks like it.

      • Lord Humungus

        They can break out those nuclear bombs ::eye roll::

    • rhywun

      Hell, good luck NY and CA. Just as brain-dead.

  17. The Late P Brooks

    So I guess Biden is making a televised address Thursday, and itā€™s supposed to be about Republicans destroying the country or something? That whole ā€œunityā€ thing didnā€™t age well.

    It’s a struggle for the soul of the nation. You cannot have unity with the minions of Satan.

    • Sean

      You cannot have unity with the minions of Satan.

      \

      “Hug a pedophile.”

      -Dems

      • Stinky Wizzleteats

        Stop being a bigot, all he wants to do is to groom and bang your kids.

  18. Toxteth O'Grady

    England pic looks like where the Beatles lived in Help!.

    “it is almost impossible for the owner to improve the house due to ruining historical character”

    That’s only for buildings listed with the National Trust, isn’t it?

    At least CA has this: http://www.theeastsideagent.com/what-is-the-mills-act/

    • Toxteth O'Grady

      (uh, if TLDR: reduced property taxes for historic buildings, evidently not uniformly state-wide)

  19. Gender Traitor

    On the subject of general architectural preferences for a home, I’m a sucker for old houses – ideally built no later than the 1920s. Unfortunately, I lack both the money and the skill required to fix one up or properly maintain it. šŸ˜ž

    I also can’t decide whether my dream house is a quaint townhouse as illustrated above or one nestled far enough back in woods that I don’t have to mow the lawn just to appease the neighbors. I think I need one of each. Sometimes I live in the country, sometimes I live in the town…

    • Tundra

      I get it, but there is something so practical about modern houses. Especially 9 foot ceilings in the basement!

      And I have no interest in being an hour from the grocery store. Suburbs suit me just fine.

    • Lord Humungus

      My first house was built in 1920 – everything was custom – windows different sizes, door different sizes – which made repair/replacements pricey.

      They interior was beautiful Arts ‘n’ Craft style – the exterior was all wood and required constant maintenance. As much as I hate modern siding I can see why people do it, especially all the painting I did every year. The southern side, which got plenty of sun, was beginning to sag. And the insulation – hah! – was pretty much nonexistent. Which meant some high heating bills in a Michigan winter.

  20. Lord Humungus

    Quote about the Stasi I saw today:

    ā€˜After the Wall fell the German media called East Germany ā€œthe most perfected surveillance state of all timeā€. At the end, the Stasi had 97,000 employees ā€“ more than enough to oversee a country of seventeen million people. But it also had over 173,000 informers among the population. In Hitlerā€™s Third Reich it is estimated that there was one Gestapo agent for every 2,000 citizens, and in Stalinā€™s USSR there was one KGB agent for every 5,830 people. In the GDR, there was one Stasi officer or informant for every sixty-three people. If part-time informers [many of whom were ā€˜pastorsā€™] are included, some estimates have the ratio as high as one informer for every 6.5 citizensā€™. ā€“ Anna Funder, Stasiland: Stories from Behind the Berlin Wall, p. 57.

    • Scruffy Nerfherder

      The estimates I saw were about 1 informant/Stasi to every 17 serfs.

      It’s the only place I’ve ever been where I was convinced I was being spied on. The hotels had hallway closets in between every two rooms.

      • Lord Humungus

        Woah – would like to hear your stories from there.

      • Scruffy Nerfherder

        Should I include the part where I gratuitously mooned what I thought was the one-way mirror in the bathroom?

        It’s been a long time (obviously), but I have some decent anecdotes.

      • Ted S.

        You jerked off in front of it just to scandalize the person watching you?

      • Scruffy Nerfherder

        No jerking, just a nice set of cheeks and maybe a hemorrhoid.

        I was 18. I thought it was the height of rebelliousness.

      • Toxteth O'Grady

        Agh, you must have suspected.

      • Toxteth O'Grady

        You (all) here to tell us about it, at least.

        O Nikita, you will never know… šŸŽµ

      • slumbrew

        No jerking… I was 18

        Riiight.

      • Toxteth O'Grady

        ick can gud shrieben sum dey…

      • rhywun

        I was there for a few days when I was 16. We stayed with family and friends. They all seemed on the up and up….

        There was also a daytime excursion to East Berlin with a school trip. The one thing everyone agreed upon was that it was impossible to spend the money we were required to convert as the price of admission because everything was so shoddy.

      • Lord Humungus

        I have an interest in the olde USSR days – hence my watching of Bald & Bankrupt.

        His visit to the Soviet Space shuttle was awe inspiring.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fZ-r5Qe3tM

        Forward to 30 minutes if you want to see the shuttle. Also his female companion is easy on the eyes.

      • Lord Humungus

        33 minutes actually

    • Stinky Wizzleteats

      One for every 5,830? That soundsā€¦not that bad actually. We have more cops than that.

      • Ted S.

        That’s only KGB, not the regular police (militsia) or traffic police (Š“ŠŠ˜, as they used to be).

      • grrizzly

        The husband of my mom’s colleague worked in the KGB and installed bugs in homes. Among other things, I guess.

      • Tundra

        And now we do it for them.

        Progress!

    • Ted S.

      Kiss my ass Erich, I’m in the west now.

  21. UnCivilServant

    I love paperwork. /lies

    Finding out where it needs to go is great /damn lies

    It is now more than half of my job /statistics