The Three Jacobs

by | Sep 12, 2022 | History, Military, Musings | 158 comments

Many Glibs posts leave you with a song.  I’m going to give you some walk-up music to set the mood instead.

Jacob Jones was born near Smyrna, Delaware, just north of Dover, in March 1768.  Orphaned by the age of four, he was raised by a family friend, a physician, and trained in medicine.  Practicing for several years, he turned his attention to law (possibly to gain the approval of the lass he had his eye on, who’s father happened to be the Governor of Delaware).  He married the girl, and was appointed the Clerk of the Delaware Supreme Court.

Alas, his wife Anna died, and Jones, grief-stricken and now without a political patron, turned his attention to military service, becoming a naval midshipman at the astonishingly old age of thirty-one in an era where most mids were in their teens.  Nonetheless, he comported himself well, and was a lieutenant on the sloop of war Philadelphia when the ship moved to the Mediterranean to deal with the country’s annoying Barbary problem.  In late October of 1803, Philadelphia gave chase to a Barbary gunship when she became impossibly grounded on an uncharted sandbar and had to be scuttled.  Jones spent twenty months as a guest of the Bey of Barbary before being released at the end of hostilities.

Jones continued with his new career, and eventually became the commander of the sloop of war Wasp when the War of 1812 kicked off.  In the action that would gain him fame, he attacked a convoy guarded by the HMS Frolic, eventually taking the ship as a prize after a vicious fight.  This would have made Commodore Jones the toast of the navy, except the British ship of the line HMS Poictiers soon arrived at the scene.  Unable to run due to battle damage and realizing that it would be suicidal to fight, Jones struck his colors and began his second stint as a prisoner of war.  He was paroled some time later, and was welcomed home by a grateful people and Congress.  Jones continued to serve in the Navy, holding commands at sea in the Mediterranean and Pacific, and at bases in New York and Baltimore, before passing away in 1850 while serving as commandant of the Philadelphia Naval Asylum.

 

In 1914, the U.S. Navy began expanding its new fleet of “thousand ton” destroyers, fast ships meant to be escorts to the cruisers and dreadnoughts that dominated the seas at the time.  One of the first was named for Commodore Jones.  She was commissioned in February 1916, and was stationed at Newport, RI that summer when the German U-boat U-53 came calling on the still-neutral Americans.  The U-boat’s captain, one Hans Rose, invited the base officers and their wives to look at the boat, while he conferred with the local German consulate.  When the US entered the war in April of 1917, Jacob Jones was detailed to escort duty, shepherding merchant shipping across the north Atlantic while guarding against the U-boat threat.

Jacob Jones didn’t have long to wait.  Less than two months after arriving at her new station at Queensland (now Cobh), Ireland, where she was patrolling the western approach and Irish Sea to prevent another Lusitania-type disaster, she came upon the merchant ship Valetta, which had been torpedoed and was nearly awash.  Jacob Jones rescued the crew of 44.

Just before Christmas 1917, though, Jacob Jones‘ luck ran out.  Coming back from Brest, France under the command of David W. Bagley (USNA, 1904), a man whose family included distinguished military service (his father was a North Carolina officer during “the late unpleasantness,” and his brother Worth [USNA 1895] held the distinction of being the only American naval officer killed during the Spanish-American War), a lookout spied a torpedo wake.  Despite the evasive actions of the Officer of the Deck, the torpedo exploded near the aft end of the ship.  Power was immediately lost, preventing a distress signal from being sent.  The vessel sank by the stern in eight minutes, and depth charges that were always kept armed for quick deployment exploded as the ship went down, hastening its demise and killing men in the water.  Kapitänleutnant Rose (the same one who had called on Newport with Bagley, commanding Jones in attendance), in a gesture of humanitarianism that was rare for the day, surfaced, took two wounded men aboard his sub, and radioed coordinates of the sinking to the British and Irish.  In all, though, 66 of the ship’s compliment of 102 officers and enlisted were killed outright or died of exposure before they could be rescued.  They went down to an unmarked grave, seemingly forever.

 

The navy wasted no time in building another Jacob Jones.  The next version was laid down in February 1917, launching two days after the war ended in November 1918.  She was only in service for a couple of years before being mothballed in 1922.  Recommissioned in 1930, she served as a training ship for Naval Academy cadets on summer tours, and in pre-World War II “neutrality patrols.”

 

In early 1942, with the US now at war and Karl Dönitz’s subs wreaking havoc along the Atlantic seaboard, Jones was tasked with a mobile anti-submarine warfare duty, despite being nearly obsolete.  Steaming south from New York, she was ordered to patrol an area off Cape May and the Delaware Capes.  She came upon the burning wreck of the tanker R. P. Resor, hit by U-578.  The destroyer circled the wreck for two hours, searching for survivors, before resuming her course south.  Despite being blacked out and zig-zagging to foil subs, she was struck on the port side by two torpedoes just before first light.  The first hit her port side amidships, touching off the forward magazine and annihilating the bridge, chart room, and officers’ and petty officers’ quarters.  Seconds later the next hit her forty feet in front of her fantail, separating the screws from the ship and flooding the aft quarters.  Maybe as many as forty men survived the initial carnage, only one of them an officer, who was nearly incoherent.  Nevertheless, the ship stayed afloat long enough for some to make it to life rafts.  As what was left of the stern settled, depth charges exploded, destroying at least one lifeboat and killing its men (sound familiar?).  A few hours later, an army air forces plane discovered the life rafts and radioed their position to the Inshore Rescue Service in New Jersey.  Struggling through heavy seas, they were able to find one life raft, taking twelve men off.  One died on the way back to Cape May.  Two days’ search failed to turn up any other wreckage or survivors.

So a pair of warships named for an officer of long and distinguished service (who managed to be twice a POW).  Both sunk by German submarines, in two different wars, at opposite ends of the north Atlantic.  I don’t know of any other instance where ships of the same name went down in such a coincidental fashion.

Of the principals:

Jacob Jones is interred in Wilmington, Delaware.

David W. Bagley survived the war and continued his naval service.  He had recently taken command of the battleship Tennessee in Pearl Harbor when he got to witness ships all around him sunk by torpedoes.  After the war, fittingly, a destroyer was named for he and his brother.  His sons (named David Jr. and Worth) were also four-star admirals.  Bagley died in 1960.

Hans Rose became the Kaiserliche Marine’s version of the Red Baron, sinking or damaging 81 ships during the war.  He survived World War I and died of natural causes in Berlin in 1969.

The U-578 was lost with all hands somewhere in the Bay of Biscay in August 1942, a little over five months after she torpedoed the second Jacob Jones.

And as for the first USS Jacob Jones, torpedoed somewhere between Land’s End and the southern tip of Ireland?  In August 2022, her wreck was located by British divers after 105 years.  Maybe the men who went down with her can rest easier now that they’re not forgotten to the depths forever.

About The Author

Shpip

Shpip

Florida Man, amphibian enthusiast with a reptile dysfunction. Founder and CEO of Vlad Țepeș Tree Service.

158 Comments

  1. DEG

    This is fasinating.

    • db

      Agreed

  2. Sensei

    Thanks, interesting read.

    In the last half of WW2 I can’t imagine the hell that was serving on a U Boat.

    • Zwak. who's suit is as ragged as his nerves.

      Well, Lothar-Gunther Buchheim does a hell of a job showing you.

      • Sensei

        Yup.

      • Shpip

        After the war, it was determined that unterseeboot crewman was the military occupation with the second-lowest life expectancy.

        Number one? Kamikaze pilot.

      • Zwak. who's suit is as ragged as his nerves.

        If you are in Chicago, and have never been, check out U-505 at the Museum of Science and Industry. I was there as a child, and even then it was claustrophobic.

      • Sensei

        I’ve been in that as well as the Becuna and Pampinito.

        U 505 much more old school.

        Also interesting to compare them to the USS Growler in NYC.

      • Shpip

        I was able to tour that boat about twenty years ago. I went on the USS Drum in Mobile in late July, and was surprised how… spacious it was compared to its German counterpart.

    • grrizzly

      I’m somewhat shocked that there were U-boats during WW1.

      A great essay, btw.

      • PudPaisley

        From the last post, the sounds that the Swedes thought were Soviet subs were actually schools of herring “farting”. I heard an NPR program about this years ago. I think they release air from sacs or something when they change depths, and when large schools do it at the same time they can record the sound. Don’t quote me on this.

  3. Zwak. who's suit is as ragged as his nerves.

    Wow, this is fascinating.

    • MikeS

      Seconded! What a great essay. I hope you have more to come, Shpip.

  4. Lackadaisical

    Am I to understand that women get to retire at a younger are in Switzerland (comment on the afternoon links)?

    • Brochettaward

      Yes because you see…they earn less money than men (and, of course, have worked less throughout their lives) and do more unpaid labor, so it totally makes sense. Even though when you look at single men versus single women, women actually come out ahead of men. It’s still all obviously the result of sexism/discrimination in the labor market.

      • Brochettaward

        According to them, the bill would make one-sided savings at the expense of women, who would have to pay more and receive less. This would be unfair, given the disadvantages that still exist for women in professional and family life, they emphasize.

        Opponents argue, among other things, that the pension situation differs between the genders: Married, divorced and widowed women today receive lower pensions overall than men, if income from pension funds is also taken into account. This income is higher among the men of today’s generation of retirees primarily because – following the logic of the classic family model – they have done significantly more gainful employment. (Among single people, on the other hand, women have slightly higher pensions than men.)

        Another topic of discussion is the unexplained gender wage gap, where the left assumes a discrimination at the expense of women. They also mention that women do more unpaid work than men.

      • Lackadaisical

        ‘(Among single people, on the other hand, women have slightly higher pensions than men.)’

        Not one mention of life span on a section on relative with of a pension? Weird…

      • Lackadaisical

        Okay, I finally read through, they had a good section on the proponents take which clearly illustrates that women benefit more than men under the current system and would likely continue to do so after their reform.

  5. SandMan

    Very interesting story.

  6. rhywun

    LOL Governor Accident‘s latest ad is eye-opening. The Dems are hanging their hopes on nothing beyond Jan. 6 and abortion.

    “Dangerous Candidate X had questions about 2020, approved of the recent SCOTUS decision that overturned RvW, and is dangerous!!”

    She will obviously win, because free shit, but at least it’s informative to know that that is all they’ve got.

    • Lackadaisical

      So glad I’m out.

    • DEG

      The Dems are hanging their hopes on nothing beyond Jan. 6 and abortion.

      Yep.

      In NH, add secession to the mix.

  7. Tundra

    Damn, son. Amazing story.

    Thanks for sharing it!

  8. Gustave Lytton

    Thank you, Shpip. You are a natural literary fisherman. Hooked me right in and just the tonic after today.

  9. Festus

    Must bring this tale forward from the dead-thread. Discovered today that my unemployment benefits basically equal what my wage earning job was. How can this be? Sensei asked “For how long?” Probably as long as they need to buy votes. I actually feel a little sick over the situation. Not so much the free munnies but instead all of those years of ball sweat. We’ve been Chumped and this will not end well. Unemployment Insurance was supposed to be a bridge, not free tickets to Cabo. There used to be a ceiling on benefits that meant you tried to find work post-haste. The Government has gone off the bridge and into the canyon. Nobody is going to work anymore.

    • rhywun

      I think unemployment insurance is significantly less here – like, half your income? – and there is a time limit. Or there was, before the plague conveniently came around and all the pols said Oh, no, there can’t be a limit.

      But I’ve never used it so I can’t be more specific.

      • Lackadaisical

        I think it depends what you make. The less you make the more likely it is to be closer to your take home pay.

    • straffinrun

      There’s a lot of that kind of thing going on here, too. Many people who change jobs time it so they start the new job 3~6 months after leaving the old job. Gotta get that free unemployment money. It is almost universal that women who want to get pregnant will get a job a year before so they get maternity leave from that company. Often that means the maternity leave is longer than the amount of time they worked at the company. Shit be fucked up.

      • rhywun

        One of my co-workers just went on paternity leave for three weeks. Must be nice.

        Oh, and they sent out a “baby registry” – I did not know that was a thing – with literally hundreds of items on it. And the website was a dumpster fire but if I was reading it right, it looked like they had already scored a couple hundred gifts.

        WTF?

      • straffinrun

        To me, “paternity leave” means he never came back from his trip to buy a pack of smokes.

      • Gender Traitor

        The Modern Baby has to be equipped like unto the manner of a mechanized infantry (hah!) campaign, including the armored personnel stroller.

      • rhywun

        It takes a village multi-national conglomerate.

      • straffinrun

        Did you get his Dip Tet? Oh, you gotta get his Dip Tet!

      • Festus

        Holly Hunter was as cute as a button back in the way-behind.

      • slumbrew

        She’s stayed cute for a long time.

  10. straffinrun

    Interesting stuff. Opening line is a bit confusing, though.

    • straffinrun

      Oops. Not the opening line. This one: Orphaned by the age of four, he was raised by a family friend, a physician, and trained in medicine.

      • MikeS

        I read it as: A doctor friend of the family raised him and taught him medicine.

      • straffinrun

        He could’ve used a relative pronoun, but the kid was an orphan.

      • Shpip

        A doctor friend of the family raised him and taught him medicine.

        That’s what I meant to say. Serves me right for writing this while having a bourbon or nine, and not being diligent with my proofreading.

        Remember folks: write drunk, edit sober.

      • MikeS

        To be clear, I think it was a perfectly proper sentence. Not sure why Straff had trouble with it.

      • Brochettaward

        To be fair, he, as in Straf so there is no confusion, is high on cock most of the time.

      • Brochettaward

        But I probably would have used a pronoun in there, as well.

      • straffinrun

        You’re sexy when you agree with me.

      • Brochettaward

        It’s never going to happen, Straf. I’d hope that even in your wet dreams, your fantasy version of me tells you know.

      • straffinrun

        It sounds like he was raised by a friend of the family and a physician. You don’t realize the friend is a physician until the end of the sentence. Not grammatically wrong. Just one of those sentences that can be interpreted two ways.

      • MikeS

        can be interpreted two ways.

        Nope. Unlike a recent situation we had a disagreement on, I think this one is pretty clear. 😉

      • straffinrun

        I met my brother, a farmer, and …

        You see the two ways that sentence can go? You want to lead the reader to assume it’s going the more common way a sentence flows. “I met my brother, a farmer, and a carpenter.” Not “I met my brother, a carpenter, and learned agriculture.”

        Not trying to nit pick, but I do a lot of editing and this stuff can be annoying.

      • slumbrew

        “Highlights of his global tour include encounters with Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod and a dildo collector.”

        (my favorite ambiguous sentence)

      • straffinrun

        Great example, SB.

      • Festus

        “My brother, a carpenter and a farmer walked into a bar one day…”

      • Zwak. who's suit is as ragged as his nerves.

        Eats, shoots, and leaves.

        Or,

        Eats shoots and leaves.

      • Gender Traitor

        My favorite “wait, what?” sentence, from a long-ago etiquette book: “Never crumble your bread or roll in the soup.”

      • UnCivilServant

        Well, rolling in the soup is a seriously impolite thing to do.

    • Shpip

      I didn’t mean it to be. Many regular Glib posts (AM & PM links, GlibFit, etc) link to a song at the end, either related to some kind of theme or just reflecting the mood of the author.

      I merely put my song link at the beginning, believing that it would help set the tone for a story about a ship lost beneath the waves for 105 years.

      BTW — Alabama-based Brent Burns wrote “Lost Sailor’s Lament” in the early 1990s, when the three vessels named in the opening line of his song were lost at sea, presumably forever. Since then, all three the HMAS Sydney (2008), the CSS Hunley (1995), and the RMS Carpathia (2000) have all been found, with the Hunley being raised and undergoing restoration efforts.

      • straffinrun

        The music 🎶 works well.

      • rhywun

        Now I’m reminded of last night’s ruminations on Deep Purple and how that was the earliest song I remember and how the 2nd earliest song I remember is that Edmund Fitzgerald dirge that was everywhere at the time.

      • Chafed

        When it comes to music, do whatever you think is best.

  11. Brochettaward

    A day without a First is like a day without sunshine. A day without the starlight. We might as well be living in total darkness without the Firsts that make up our lives.

    • MikeS

      I’m glad my first this afternoon could be a point of light in a world of darkness. You are welcome.

      • Brochettaward

        Seconded! What a great essay. I hope you have more to come, Shpip.

        If you think that anyone even capable of a First would ever use such language, I do not know what to say to you. I can’t even.

      • MikeS

        I can’t even…first

        FIFY

      • rhywun

        I had my first in two and half days this morning and damn it felt good.

      • Brochettaward

        Taking the word First in vain is a cardinal second.

      • Chafed

        Is that sentence missing the word “poop?”

      • rhywun

        Not anymore.

      • Chafed

        *buffs fingernails on chest*

  12. Brochettaward

    It really fucking pains me to see NFL head coaches who make millions a year who could be out coached by a 10 year old who has only ever played Madden. How the fuck do the Broncos squander two minutes of time running 3 plays for like 5 yards?

    • Brochettaward

      Oh…Nathaniel Hackett is another guy who got his break into the industry through nepotism and a head coaching job because he had Aaron Rodgers. Explains a lot.

    • slumbrew

      That was bizarre.

    • rhywun

      Yeah it did look kind of like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory

      • Brochettaward

        You could probably take your average housewife off the street who has never even watched a football game and she could manage the clock better than that.

  13. Gustave Lytton

    Can’t wait for the day after the election when the political ads go away (temporarily). I’m going to jump off a cliff if I see another of Tina Kotex the hateful dyke’s ads proposing her “solutions” to the unhoused. Particularly since she has been the chief proponent of enabling and fostering it by going after any city that dares to have any sort of rational response to bums (well, as much as the 9th Circus and the City of Boise *spit* allows). Or the ones decrying Alek “RINO loser” Skarlatos because his arms aren’t covered in baby blood up to his elbows.

    • one true athena

      Cali has a constant ad barrage already on behalf of the Sports Betting referendum, which is totally going to end homelessness! Don’t you want to end homelessness with another bazillion dollars? Of course you do! Indian casinos and the mafia that operate them sure are a bottomless pit of money.

      • Gustave Lytton

        Hah hah! I saw those incidentally while staying at the Holiday Inn Express & casino in Klamath on the rez. Those poor dumb tribes who aren’t raking it in from gambling addicts need help too!

      • Chafed

        I’m so sick of those ads, I’m voting against both propositions.

      • one true athena

        My iron law of California propositions is that they are nearly always one of two possibilities: A very bad idea (most of them), or a good idea poorly executed. Even some of the Overturn Bad Law X ones, that you’d think would be slamdunks, are often just so badly drafted, it’s pathetic.

        And yeah, both of these betting ones are so obviously garbage, I hope they both get crushed. But this state being what it is, the Let’s End Homelessness and Sad Little Indian Orphans one will probably pass.

      • Chafed

        You are definitely right. My guess is 27 will be the winner.

        By my calculation, I can move out of California in 7 years. My hope is it doesn’t crater before then.

  14. creech

    I love stories like Shpip’s ships. Sometime, I’ll have to give you Thomas Nolan’s love story – young lad left Ireland, eventually enlisted in Lincoln’s Army from Ohio, fought and captured at Gettysburg, and his love interest while a prisoner of war.

  15. Festus

    Still can’t wrap my brain around it. Why would anyone get up, shower, shit, and shave and then ship to a job when Justin told you that it wasn’t necessary? This goes against every bit of my learned experience. They really do want to tear the foundations down. They really do hate us and want us to die.

    • grrizzly

      All three sons of Margaret Trudeau had Russian names: Устин, Саша and Михаил.

      • Festus

        Sad bit of luck that the best of them got swept away by an avalanche.

      • Gustave Lytton

        [Alexandre] was given the nickname “Sacha” (the French spelling of the Russian diminutive for Alexander) in recognition of his father’s love of Russian literature and culture.[citation needed] The name also is linked to former ambassador of the USSR to Canada and family friend Alexander Yakovlev.

        [Michel] Trudeau was known to family and friends as Miche, a nickname given to him as a four-month-old by Fidel Castro when he accompanied his father and mother to Cuba in 1976

      • Festus

        I meant the “best” because he can’t hurt us anymore.

      • grrizzly

        I read a Russian article recently that claimed that the middle son was named after Alexander Yakovlev and that Margaret even called the Soviet embassy to consult what the right diminutive name was. Right, whatevs. It’s well known and simply obvious that the Russian name Михаил is equivalent to Michael/Michel. It’s the Устин — Justin link that was shocking. Nobody is called Устин in Russia these days. The name only survives as a patronymic (Konstantin Ustinovich Chernenko) or a last name (Dmitry Ustinov or Peter Ustinov).

    • Gustave Lytton

      I dunno, but I like working and get antsy when I’m not. Or it’s just something I’ve been doing since I’m a teen and just have a habit.

      • straffinrun

        Same. I have to work, so I don’t really consider it self discipline to get up and go there. It’s weird. Days in a row off? Now I have to decide what to do.

      • Gustave Lytton

        How about another cup of coffee before deciding…

      • Festus

        THIS. This is my problem right now. I need a reason to get up. It’s driving me nuts.

      • Zwak. who's suit is as ragged as his nerves.

        One of the hardest things since semi-forced early retirement is the boredom and lack of purpose. I didn’t help that my main hobby (motorcycling) was kinda taken away at the same time. On the plus side, drinking had gone way down over the years, or I would be a Fat Fuck in no time. Glibfit really helps, so, thanks Chafed, if you are reading this.

  16. Festus

    Fecking Justin has become Pennywise, the Dancing Clown. Pierre Polivierre, his new best enemy has already been Knighted as “Sir Pee-Pee” because the Left don’t meme.

  17. straffinrun

    Last night, I did simultaneous interpretation of everything my wife said in Japanese into English. However, I added 3 “fuggin” into every sentence. “My fuggin’ parents are coming to our fuggin’ house this weekend for fuggin’ dinner.”

    Wife wanted to murder me after 15 minutes of this, but the daughter was howling with laughter.

    • Festus

      That is awesome!

  18. Chafed

    How did Gino Smith get the starting QB slot in Seattle?

    • straffinrun

      *The Johnny Carson audience replies*

      “I don’t know. How did Gino Smith get the starting QB slot in Seattle?”

      • Chafed

        You, sir, are thinking of Match Game.

        And my question was serious. I thought the guy washed out of the NFL after 5 lackluster seasons.

  19. Don escaped Texas

    is there a way to explain to your wife (or anyone) why you’re a free speech absolutist?

    I’m left pointing out that a police state that monitors facebook and arrests people for announcing an intention that they probably don’t have the equipment, ability, or, frankly, temerity to execute (pardon the pun) is just going to be a ready-made tool for abuse. But then that leaves me naked to the charge that I don’t think much of police, that I don’t believe they should do what they do or that they do what they do well….which is true: I think all that….but it’s terribly non-standard, so I’m the tinfoil hat type raving about our living dystopia…which does not sell at all.

    But but what about all the X they prevent/enforce/manage/saveusfrom. Sweetheart, what I’m trying to tell you is that the species would be better off if there is no fence around the Grand Canyon: I don’t wish to be taxed for the building of the fence, the signs attached to the fence, or the uniform yelling at me to not get too close to the fence. The Grand Canyon is its own cure, as are many things. Free minds…free markets…and watch your step.

    • straffinrun

      I got a similar problem when explaining to the wife why taxation is bullshit. If you figure it out, lemme know.

      • Brochettaward

        Ask her if its ok for the biggest and strongest individual in the room to take 20-30% of what everyone has in their wallet or their lunch at work. Or if it’s OK for someone who renders a service to someone, like say protection, without the other parties consent is justified in collecting money in return. Like the mob. Because these things are basically what a government does. We just rationalize it on the scale of governments when we know its unacceptable on the individual level because we can’t fathom any other arrangement.

    • Festus

      She just needs a good mugging by Cops.

    • Brochettaward

      I would start by pointing out that being a free speech absolutist was considered a pretty universal American value all of…12 years ago.

      There’s the very obvious point that everything people consider “progress” today started as minority opinions at one point in time that the ruling classes would have squashed if they had the authority to (as is, they often still tried to snuff ideas out through the use of government force). It holds true in politics, culture, and teh science. But the main issue is that the modern progress can’t even conceive…can’t even fathom the idea that they could possibly be wrong on any issue and that their political opponents may actually turn out to be right whether it’s on the trannie issue, global warming, the covid shots or anything else.

      There’s the obvious conflict of interest in the government policing speech. You can’t really hold your government accountable if you don’t have free speech, but you’ll get various forms of excuses and forms of special pleading. I mean, we don’t want to squelch journalism (yes, they do), they’ll cry, but we certainly don’t need to allow racist thoughts!

      There’s the slippery slope argument in general. Like, where do you fucking stop once you start policing things you find unacceptable? Should we go after people who are simply assholes online (I certainly hope not, for very personal reasons)?

      You could even argue about natural rights…how everyone is born and deserves the freedom of thought, no matter how ugly it may seem to another. Though this won’t go far.

      But at the end of the day, it’s all really pointless because I’ll circle back to the above. Most people who don’t believe in free speech at this stage are so drunk on the kool aid and the smell of their own shit that they can’t wrap their head around the fact that they may just be wrong.

      I don’t know what support of person you are arguing with here. My own biases lead me to believe this person is probably on the political left at this point in time because most conservatives are naturally leery of big tech and government institutions which are decidedly and obviously not on their side (it isn’t hard to see scenarios where if they were, plenty of conservatives would be abusing it, too).

      • Don escaped Texas

        Most people who don’t believe in free speech

        I’ve said repeatedly here that most people don’t believe in freedom

      • Brochettaward

        I’d modify that slightly in that most people don’t believe in freedom unless it’s their own freedom.

      • Ownbestenemy

        Most people believe in freedom until it means it takes work and trust. Freedom on a large scale in the current state of humans cannot be achievable

      • Zwak. who's suit is as ragged as his nerves.

        No. Most people believe in Freedom, but you have to make the case each and every time, as it isn’t the default position, and the case needs to be made repeatedly.

        And, contrary to some beliefs, freedom doesn’t take trust. In fact, only utopia takes trust as a given, freedom takes personal responsibility, re you have to know that there will be consequences to all of your actions, and plan accordingly. So, work, but not trust.

      • Festus

        This is why most of us put up with your bullshit, Bro.

      • Stinky Wizzleteats

        Are you saying you aren’t an asshole IRL? I’m disappointed for some reason.

    • Zwak. who's suit is as ragged as his nerves.

      I had to have that conversation with the wife not too long ago. It… wasn’t easy. But I eventually got my point across. It helps to be a big time book lover, I find.

  20. Festus

    “Nice little NFL team yas got goin on heah! Shame if anything happened to it…”

  21. Ownbestenemy

    Hmm…Music by John Williams or Looney Tunes Plays the Classics…..choices, choices.

    • Festus

      Carl Stallings for the win!

      • Ownbestenemy

        JW concert is subscriber only at our music hall so its Looney Tunes. I would do a play but everything in Vegas right now isn’t…good. Well maybe To Kill a Mockingbird…guess I could go to that too.

      • Festus

        “Sniper’s Symphony” “FBI’s Funarama” ? “Merrie Maelstrom”?

      • Ownbestenemy

        I like it…I think I have been activated

  22. Festus

    I’m looking at a beautiful steak that I might eat over two nights and now I’m reduced to “The Dog In The Manger” because I’m sick of sharing what is mine with someone that won’t even try. Fuck off! Butcher your own steer!

  23. Gustave Lytton

    Real reason William and Harry won’t travel together on a plane: they’ve completely broken with each other, and Harry would push Prince Pegger out the door, put himself forward as pretender, and seize the throne from his weak father in the Glorious Revolution of 2022 with the new reign of Henry & Meghan as latter day William & Mary.

    • Tres Cool

      Id watch that for a dollar.

    • CPRM

      I suspect it’s because they take ‘bugger off’ too literally with each other. And only Harry Potter fans want to see that.

    • Toxteth O'Grady

      Where are these pegging rumors suddenly coming from? Who’s pegging him?

      • DEG

        Trigger Warning: Rolling Stone.

    • Zwak. who's suit is as ragged as his nerves.

      So, Oregon Shakespeare festival 2023?

  24. Sean

    @Festus.

    Ride those unemployment bennies.

    GF is scared her boss is gonna fire her as the most senior, highly paid, and whitest employee. I’m gonna tell her to ride that shit as long as possible and sue, sue, sue too.

    GL.

    • Toxteth O'Grady

      Yeah, you earned it.

    • Stinky Wizzleteats

      If you’re forced to pay for it, and you are, there’s no shame in it.

    • Lackadaisical

      Besides demographics and pay, why would she be on the chopping block?

    • Stinky Wizzleteats

      Blown away at a chicken and waffles place? So stereotypes DO have a grain of truth.

      • Stinky Wizzleteats

        Wait, it was a robbery? Now I feel bad…RIP guy.

  25. DEG

    More on Granite PAC:

    Alex Stanford, chairman and treasurer of Granite PAC, which sent out the mailers, told The Epoch Times that Sununu had nothing to do with the mailers, that neither the governor nor his campaign knew about them, and that his committee chose the targeted candidates on their own.

    While Stanford would not disclose his ties to Sununu, The Epoch Times learned he was a former intern for Sununu’s father, John Sununu, a former NH governor who went on to serve as chief of staff for George Bush Sr.

    Stanford also counts Paul Collins, Sununu’s campaign advisor, among his followers and his social media pages, which are riddled with personal posts promoting Sununu.

    “We chose these candidates because they don’t represent Republican values and have taken actions that are not in the best interest of New Hampshire,” said Stanford, who refused to elaborate on his political credentials, “this has nothing to do with the governor’s elections.”

    Sure this has nothing to do with the Sun-King.

  26. DEG

    Gym time

    Mornin’ all.

  27. Gender Traitor

    Good morning, U,DEG, Stinky, Sean, TO’G, maybe CPRM, and maybe(?) homey (still up or up already?) First day back at work after a couple of extra days off wasn’t too hateful. Biggest semi-issue was the annoying reminder that because our Professional Employer Org apparently just shuffled folks around, we now have a new account manager AND a new payroll manager…which means we have to get BOTH of them “trained.” 😒

    • UnCivilServant

      Morning. I’m in the mindset where I’m convinced the outcome of this vacation will be that work decides they don’t need me ranging from “Oh he clearly does nothing” to “he’s so irresponsible for leaving at this point in the project.”

      • Gender Traitor

        Ideally ideal, though, is that everything goes smoothly, but nobody notices that you were gone.

      • UnCivilServant

        The most ideal would be them noticing I’m gone so that they realize I do something, but not so much that leaving looks irresponsible.

      • UnCivilServant

        It doesn’t help that I got DQed from the post I applied to because I’m not eligable for a non-list transfer into the title. Which means I’m not in the running unless they exaust the non-list transfer candidates and go to the list. Meaning, if anyone in the first set of candidates even remotely appeals to the hiring manager, I’m SOL. The only thing in my favor is that the number of intrastructure peoplesoft managers or people who are good enough who might apply for the transfer is not very big. I’ve done enough hiring for this unit to know how few applicants we get.

      • Gender Traitor

        I’m not eligable for a non-list transfer into the title. Which means I’m not in the running unless they exaust the non-list transfer candidates and go to the list.

        I don’t really grasp how one becomes either “list” or “non-list,” so I’ll just assume it’s State Guv Bureaucratese sorcery of some sort that somehow prevents just picking the most qualified person available for the job in question. 😕

      • UnCivilServant

        Well, the article I wrote only really covered the list because it’s the primary mechanism. However, you can either take a lateral transfer into another title of equal grade, or take a two grade increase as a trasnfer, but can’t do more than one two grade bump in a row without getting appointed from a list in between. My last promotion was technically that two grade bump, so I have to get list appointed to increase in pay grade.

      • Gender Traitor

        I’d be happy to appoint you to that list! 😃

        But I bet it doesn’t work that way, does it? 😞

      • UnCivilServant

        No, it’s the state management that makes those decisions.

      • Gender Traitor

        Well, I DID pay sales taxes within the state of New York within the last few weeks. Two whole nights’ worth!

        Guess that doesn’t get me any clout.

      • Zwak. who's suit is as ragged as his nerves.

        So the old “I am not a doctor, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn!” excuse.

    • Toxteth O'Grady

      Mornin, ya little Buckeye sunflower.

      Thanks for the link, DEG.

      • Gender Traitor

        Good morning, ya little Cali (I think?) calla lily!

        Fun fact, if “too local” – a popular area sunflower field, a favorite for photo ops, is apparently about to bloom again after two years off during the panicdemic. (Don’t know why the Wu Flu prevented the cultivation of sunflowers.)

      • Toxteth O'Grady

        Oui, tu as raison.

        “The calla lilies are in bloom again; such a strange flower.” Although I am not sure what’s so strange about them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNtz0r5pmXo

    • straffinrun

      Mornin’, GT. What am I, chopped river?

  28. UnCivilServant

    I should pack up and head to the next city. I’m just having trouble mustering the motivation.

      • UnCivilServant

        heh.

        I’m slowly packing my stuff, soon I’ll grab a luggage cart and lug it all to the car. Then I’ll get gas and ice and get on the road.

        But, I’m to the point where I have to pack up my computer.

        Later, people. I’ll see you this evening.