I’ve been indulging in a re-read of Neal Stephenson’s trilogy “The Baroque Cycle” the books of which have a place of honor on my tiny cabin’s tiny bookshelf. But there’s one thing about it that pisses me off and that’s because for an epic story ostensibly about money Neal Stephenson gets it all wrong.
Before we get into the substance of my rant I want to mention an entertaining video that’s been mentioned here before: “Pounds, shillings, and pence: a history of English coinage”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2paSGQRwvo
Watching it may help make the following more comprehensible. Here’s a brief synopsis:
One pound = four crowns = 20 shillings = 240 pence
One crown = five shillings = 60 pence
One shilling = 12 pence
The third book of the trilogy, “The System of the World”, describes the second meeting of The Clubb for the Taking and Prosecution of the Party or Parties responsible for the Manufacture and Placement of the Infernal Engines lately Exploded at Crane Court, Orney’s Shipyard, &c. which takes place in 1714:
But certain things about Clubbs were universal. “First order of business: the collection of Dues!” Mr. Threader proclaimed. He had a coin pre-positioned in a tiny pocket of his waistcoat, and now flipped it casually onto the stone lid of a twenty ton coffin. Everyone did a double-take: it was a pound sterling, which was to say a silver coin, and very crisp-looking too. Using it to pay Clubb dues was a bit like non-chalantly riding around Hyde Park on the back of a Unicorn.
Daniel threw in a Piece of Eight. Mr. Kikin paid with Dutch silver money. Mr. Orney tossed out a golden guinea. Henry Arlanc upended a purse and poured out half a pint of copper tokens.
This is like one of those ultra-woke articles where every single sentence is false or makes no sense. Let me deconstruct it step-by-step:
…it was a pound sterling, which was to say a silver coin, and very crisp-looking too.
Silver pound coins were made in England but only during the 1640’s[1] during the time of Charles I’s difficulties with Parliament. They were not an easily manageable coin because they were huge at 53mm in diameter and weighing 119g[2], more like a medallion than a coin. The largest common silver coin was the “crown” worth a quarter of a pound. At 41mm in diameter and weighing about 32g[3] it was slightly larger than a U.S. silver dollar which weighs 26.7g. During World War II when the pound sterling was worth four U.S. dollars the crown was sometimes casually referred to as a “dollar”.
Daniel threw in a Piece of Eight.
The Piece of Eight or Spanish Milled Dollar was the universal currency of the era. It was 38mm in diameter and weighed 25.5g. The initial value of the U.S. dollar was the weight in silver of the Spanish Milled Dollar.
Mr. Kikin paid with Dutch silver money.
I know very little about Dutch coinage. At the time the “guilden” seems like the standard silver coin. At 31mm in diameter and weighing 10.6g it was worth about one-third of a crown.
Mr. Orney tossed out a golden guinea.
The gold “guinea” was the standard pound coin of the era but even then the increased value of gold made the guinea worth more than 20 shillings. The value finally stabilized at 21 shillings and it was a snooty practice to price things in guineas instead of pounds. The guinea was 25mm in diameter and weighed 8.3g.[4] It was replaced by an actual one pound gold coin the “sovereign” during the reign of George III.
Henry Arlanc upended a purse and poured out half a pint of copper tokens.
The largest copper coin of the time was the half penny and it was not small at 28mm in diameter which is larger than the U.S. quarter at 24.3mm. The penny of the time was made out of silver.
It is implied that the Clubb’s dues were a pound. If this is so then:
- Mr. Threader paid with a “crisp-looking” coin that didn’t exist.
- Daniel paid one-quarter of the charge.
- It isn’t specified what Mr. Kikin paid but possibly three guilden or slightly less than a crown.
- Mr. Orney paid slightly more than a pound.
- It takes 480 half pennies to make a pound which is far more than “half a pint” so Henry Arlanc underpaid as well.
Now I know the trilogy is fiction, and if in his universe Neal Stevenson wants the silver one pound coin to be the size of a silver dollar that’s his prerogative, but would it have killed him or changed the events of the story to be more accurate?
Footnotes
[1] I seem to recall seeing another silver pound coin in my copy of Seaby[5] but I haven’t been able to find it again.
[2] I’m using Vampire units here because millimeters and grams are more natural for the discussion of coins than inches and ounces.
[3] The astute of you will have noticed that the silver in four 1714-era 32g crowns is more than the silver in one 1640-era 119g pound. Coin weights fluctuated over the years and reigns
[4] If a pound is 128g of silver and a guinea was 8.3g of gold then at the time the gold/silver ratio was 15.4 which is correct according to this:
https://www.longtermtrends.net/gold-silver-ratio/
[5] The British equivalent of the U.S. Red Book[6] is “Coins of England & The United Kingdom” originally published by B. A. Seaby:
https://spinkbooks.com/products/coins-of-england-the-united-kingdom-2023-pre-decimal-issues
[6] “The Official Red Book: A Guide Book of United States Coins”:
https://whitman.com/a-guide-book-of-united-states-coins-spiral-2023/
STEVE SMITH SAY: IN FOR A PENNY, IN FOR A POUNDING, AND BY POUNDING MEAN…
LOL!
A most perfect First.
STEVE SAY “YOU PEDANT, ME POUNDANT”!
Nothing says class like giving the thumbs up to rape jokes at the expense of a guy whose only actual sin was disagreeing with you on politics on a little read libertarian blog a decade ago.
So, do you give up the Firsting shit at a decade? We must be 6 years into it by now.
Firsting is classy. Not like the Steve Smith in-joke (that a lot of people reading probably don’t even fully get).
But, the point isn’t that the joke is old. It’s that certain people who have a rather self-righteous, sanctimonious image of themselves perpetuate it. While attacking classy Firsters.
Tell yourself whatever you need to hear.
I thought it was awesome.
The “I don’t have an actual response but I can’t just not respond” response is noted, kinnath.
And I have nothing against Shpip’s First.
What the heck is a “mm”?
It’s a French thing and therefore not comprehensible to people of normal mentality, the same way that numismatics is not comprehensible to people of normal mentality.
*points to self*
Zoom?
https://us02web.zoom.us/wc/3713324517/join?track_id=&jmf_code=&meeting_result=&tk=&cap=undefined&refTK=&rn=false&epk=1AIoAyI4d_VfR_QlgAeOy5LRkIVAgZ2CcaaZddt8BjbWRkiGneI.uD6Gu4FjM2O7KN_K&wpk=wcpk%7B0%7D%26%26%26%26wcpk55a7843114dfb421de7b28f6da7aa480&_x_zm_rtaid=yNM0BUxsSt-sDb56DLQtvQ.1681948139138.95d7bea215a42f264c5cfb4531cbb53f&_x_zm_rhtaid=830
You know, I hate computer facilitated audio and video so Zooming is anathema to me. But I clicked on your link and got login page which I didn’t investigate any further. But I also tried the shorter version of this:
https://us02web.zoom.us/wc/3713324517/join
which is everything after the question mark and which produced the exact same results.
Everything after the question mark is personally identification information that you probably don’t want to be shared.
Swiss has nothing to hide.
Secret Glibs HumpDay Zoom Linky. (password: Pode$ta)
I’d like to thank TPTB for publishing this for Wednesday evening. Ever since our dear Mojeaux monopolized the Friday night time slot Wednesday’s is the best for making fun of those addicted to Zooming because they’re not here to retaliate!
✋
Dude, I just threw myself on the grenade of Friday night posts. NOBODY wanted that slot. I’m doing you all a favor, is what.
‘Tis true.
Good grief Richard, give the man a straight answer. A mm is a millimeter; 25.4 mm is about one inch.
An inch is defined as 25.4mm. No abouts about it.
I will confess that that the dimensions in my article have a bit of “about” about them. Different sources have different dimensions and coins back then were not of consistent size.
I need to refresh my Red Book; it’s been about 15 years.
Except for the plethora of new quarters, which I hate, and except for price changes, which I have no interest, not much has changed. Something new I learned when I upgraded my ancient copy of the Red Book was that Fugio Cents were authorized only after a substantial bribe ($10K!) to the head the the U.S. Treasury at the time.
The new quarters a travesty. The reverses are “meh whatever” five the ladies a couple of years. But the obverse which now looks worn down fresh from the mint. After a few years of circulation Washington will be a worn flat outline while the reverses are still recognizable. There is no way in hell that was a design accident.
Yep. I actually really like the current obverse which was originally approved to be the new obverse in 1932 and which would have magnificent in the deep relief of the time. Except for Sally Ride I had to Google the Extremely Significant Women of this year’s reverses.
*All* the coins are going to change in 2026 for the U.S. 250th. I anticipate I will give up saving modern coins at that time, except in jars.
The recent quarters are also so light they feel like the plastic coins the kids have in play cash registers.
Hm, weight changes are pretty rare. If I had the latest Red Book I could confirm or disprove that. 🫤
This I think is one of the more interesting things about the U.S. Mint’s practice of of increasing production by reducing the relief (depth) of coins. The weight and composition of quarters hasn’t changed since copper-nickel replaced silver in 1964. But their appearance has definitely changed and I could write an essay on how appearance was then and even now (As you’ve just suggested.) is an important aspect of coin acceptance.
Maybe you noticed that pennies (technically cents) are lighter? in 1982 cents were changed from mostly copper to mostly zinc with a copper coating. You don’t need to balance a few to notice the difference.
No they were quarters. Literally felt like plastic coated in metal. Maybe it’s just because they’re now so thin if the weight really hasn’t changed. But they felt fake.
Since someone mentioned Kansas earlier, this is a better example of the depth of their work, opposed to hearing “Wayward Son” on every classic rock station.
SLD- in general, progressive rock makes my ass polyps burst and bleed. But I can tolerate small doses of Kansas and Alan Parsons.
I never dived into the albums 🙁
but there is a time and a place for some good prog rock in my book. 👍
Prog rock is not my favorite.
Where would Lindisfarne fall? Maybe more RenFaire Rock? I usually hate that, but this has a bit of a groove to it.
Alan Parsons has one of my all time favorite lyric – “the sun in your eyes made some of the lies worth believing”.
I only know the 3 or 4 hits but damn they were good hits. Pre-teen favorites.
“Mr. Kikin paid with Dutch silver money.” That does not mean a single coin…
Guilden, Ducaton (zilveren rijder) Rijksdaalder, Staten drie guldens (the 3 Guilder coin) are all common enough silver Dutch money, at that time.
I’d expect no less of a servant of the Swiss to know all the precise details.
Perhaps your could consult with Mr. Stephenson on his next book?
Then Swissie has earned a tuppence for his contribution
Speaking of French things not comprehensible to mortals or nusmatistis, much of the Baroque Cycle is based off of the works of Fernand Braudel, both his Civilization and Capitalism three volume set, and also his The Mediterranean and the Mediterranean World, another three volume set, the later of which was composed completely in his head while interned in a Nazi prison camp during WWII.
Thank you. I’ve been starved for something new to read.
I’ll see how these render on my crappy bookreader but I may end up expending a few crowns for dead tree versions:
https://archive.org/details/BraudelFernandCivilizationAndCapitalism/Braudel%2C%20Fernand%20-%20Civilization%20and%20Capitalism%2C%20Vol.%201/page/n5/mode/2up
I can’t find the reference anymore but I read that Neal Stephenson became so unhappy with his fictional depiction of sword fighting in “The Baroque Cycle” that he sponsored an entire series of collaborative books to make amends:
https://www.amazon.com/Mongoliad-Cycle-Neal-Stephenson/dp/1612182364
I don’t recall why but I do recall I didn’t finish the first book. If only he had understood that his crimes against numismatists were greater.
FWIW, his historical stuff bores me. Gimme future or at least alien, dammit.
I loved the Baroque Cycle, and think it is his best work, but I can see how it would bore the piss out of someone. If you have read a lot of 19th century stuff like The Wandering Jew, and the aforementioned Civilization and Capitalism, it is a fairly interesting
Oh come now, the fencers clearly had more pointed criticism than the numismatists. I’d heed that too.
Fencers with swords: “Your money or your life!”
Numismatics: “Could you give us a few minutes?”
(Apologies to Sir Terry Pratchett.)
The apologies may be owed to Jack Benny and/or his writers (or whoever they cribbed it from.)
He should be unhappy about his inability to end a story and do something about it.
But there’s one thing about it that pisses me off…
Just one?
I can suspend my disbelief for the rest of it. There’s a reason this article’s title refers to Gell-Mann Amnesia. Maybe my next rant will be about the prison cell code breaking sequence in “Cryptonomicon”.
Lol!
I’m not a tech dude by any stretch, but that one even got me!
Thanks, Richard.
Excellent pedantry, Richard.
JFC, the Bruins played like shit tonight. Either that or they held a clinic on how to turn the puck over in your own zone.
Lol.
After one of the best hockey games I’ve seen in years, the Wild are sucking ass tonight. Not sure why they put Flower in after Monday, but…
At least I won’t need to stay up so late tonight.
I am fully expecting the Rangers to suck ass tomorrow night after the stellar performance they put in last night. That’s just the way it seems to go.
In fairness, these guys are all ridiculously good. Not much difference between the teams
Hitler’s cadence in his speech is quite similar to the civil rights leaders of America and their cadence in their speeches. Just a random thought.
it was a snooty practice to price things in guineas instead of pounds
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_(coin)#Twentieth_century_onwards
Still is.
Good Morning:
FYSA, the tornado that passed through Cole OK missed me by about a mile south of us. I don’t think we had damage.
We lost power for about 4 hours.
We did hide in our shelter.
Did pop out to look, have pics, no noise from our perspective.
I will not try to go back to sleep.
Sheep count +10 so far.
oh goodness, that sounds very close! Glad it missed you.
But the last part – are they rescue sheep, or did the tornado drop them at your place, or?
His ewes have been pregnant.
Hope you didn’t have hail damage! My Bro and Sis in the OKC area reported lots of hail, but safe from the tornado itself.
Yikes, ‘bodru! That’s much too close for comfort! 😳 Glad you and yours are OK, and I hope your neighbors are too!
Yikes. Glad it missed you.
Well. Hayeksplosives managed to get herself in a pickle.
Went straight from work to the lobby of coworker’s hotel. From there took a Lyft to dinner (live music-yay!) and then back to coworker’s room for several hours. Ahem.
Then I drove off in my car to my apartment whereupon it became obvious I had left my coat at work (no biggie) with my apartment keys in the pocket (biggie).
So now I’m in a hotel—the one I lived in when I first moved here—for the night. Got the last available room 👍 (Didn’t want to wake coworker by going back to his room.)
Fortunately I had my overnight bag of makeup, meds, change of clothes, with me so tomorrow morning I’ll be good to go to work and fetch my stuff.
But what an idiot I am 😘🤪😂🥂
Yeah, but at least you got laid.
⬅
Well, yeah
So I got that going for me. Which is nice.
Mornin.
☕
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8S0_DppB14
Remember 120 minutes?
Pepperidge farms ‘members.
🎶🎶
suh’ fam
whats goody
Richard – you probably won’t see this as you aren’t usually among the morning crew but that was interesting. You know more about the history of my national coinage than I do.
It’s only 11:16 but that’s lunch time for limey.
Morning all.
Ps – I was just thinking how one of my favourite* novels is based on second (and probably third) hand info of varying reliability, plus some probable poetic license so you end up with “coconuts” that are soft, fleshy fruits filled with lemonade. I’m okay with that. The Coral Island is one of those childhood books I didn’t read until I was an adult and am glad wasn’t ruined for me by being on any godawful curriculum I happened to encounter.
*The limey style guide now mandates the extraneous u
Mornin’ all
Morning!!
Good morning, Shirley, hayek, limey, homey, Sean, and ‘bodru!
Another day of plodding through the recording of Tuesday night’s Board meeting – still about an hour to go of listening for a bit, pausing to draft minutes, rewinding as necessary. (“Who was that who seconded the motion??”) Just about to what will almost certainly be the longest single part of the meeting – my boss’s report.🤦🏼♀️
Employee of the week after this?
Doubt it. My only hope might be Administrative Professionals Day next week…but I don’t recall that my boss has ever been aware of it. He’d probably tell me to order some flowers for myself. 🙄
Nobody remembers Sysadmin Appreciation Day either.
Well, that’s just SAD.
You should hack little reminders into the appropriate supervisors’ Outlook calendars.
“A new rule from the Biden administration will force homebuyers with good credit scores to pay higher mortgage rates in order to subsidize loans to those with riskier borrowing profiles”
https://www.zerohedge.com/personal-finance/biden-punish-good-credit-homebuyers-subsidize-high-risk-mortgages
Why even bother doing the right thing, paying your debts on time, and maintaining good credit? At some point, and we’re getting close to it in my estimation, following the rules makes you a sucker. Also, I look forward to the future delinquent mortgage crisis in, oh, five years or so.
+1 unpaid student loan
I don’t always buy homes, but when I do I prefer cash.
I’m sure this was just a fluke instance of a longstanding undiagnosed heart ailment. 🙄
The good news is that she survived. The bad news is that this three-sport high school senior “will most likely be not able to play contact sports after this.”
I miss the earth so much….
Its lonely out in space,
So…exactly how…remote is this training for your new gig?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_of_inaccessibility ?
I am in S. Carolna, I live in Cali, and Im stuck here til Saturday . Eating poorly, sleeping little, Im tired.
Get yourself some of that good Carolina BBQ and check in here as often as you can. 🙂
Thanks red!
You’re welcome! Also, some words of wisdom.
Take heart; we Glibs will drag each other over the finish line of this marathon we call life.
Might not be pretty, but we’re not going to leave a man behind.
👍🏁✅
Thanks Hayek, I will persist.
It is a great gig,
Mornin ‘, Yusef! I too have been lonely, and then realized I was among friends. Unfortunately, none of them were mine.
I can take comfort, I wont be alone much longer.
Morning.
Good morning, U! How’s it going?
Well, I took tomorrow off, so it’s the end of the workweek today. But I’ve got two candidates to interview today. Yesterday had one of the more painful interviews I’ve had to conduct. (hint – a language barrier thick enough to stop a tank)
You’re interviewing Ukranians?
No.
A woman from India whose English was barely good enough to be a tourist, if that.
Oh, dear! Was yesterday’s interview live or remote? Were you at least able to get a hint by reading lips? 😕
It was remote, and she had so much difficulty understanding Us that she gave up on a number of softball questions with “I don’t know that” after a minute’s pause trying to figure out what the question was.
But will she do the needful?
No
Her experience wasn’t in the areas we need, but policy said we had to do the interview anyway.
SpaceX is targeting as soon as Thursday, April 20 for the first flight test of a fully integrated Starship and Super Heavy rocket from Starbase in Texas. The 62 minute launch window opens at 8:28 a.m. CT and closes at 9:30 a.m. CT.
Cool!
Nice. This is a better live link than the last one.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mhJRzQsLZGg
Launch that spliff, yo! It’s 4/20…
Now I am sure I know why the launch was called off 2 days ago…
Mornin’, reprobates!
Good morning, ‘patzie! ::raises travel mug o’coffee::
“Get off my lawn!!!”
https://nypost.com/2023/04/19/6-year-old-girl-parents-shot-after-basketball-rolls-into-mans-north-carolina-yard/
Won’t somebody do something? Time to take the guns away from these white supremacists!
Something, something, cold dead hands, etc.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5b2bUZ3eeRE&pp=ygUcTWVuIGluIGJsYWNrIGNvbGQgZGVhZCBoYW5kcw%3D%3D
More Democrat shenanigans.
For some reason I suspect this one will fade from the national news. I can’t quite put my finger on it…
The birthday party shooting is also fading.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/04/update-suspected-phone-charger-shoplifters-who-killed-26-yr-old-home-depot-employee-are-arrestedhad-baby-in-getaway-vehicle/
I don’t expect this one to be around long either.
Richard, thanks for this article! Very cool.
I’ve just watched the linked video. That guy was a crack-up.
My introduction to English coinage history and denominations was in Sir William S Baring-Gould’s “The Annotated Sherlock Holmes”, which incidentally was the first item I saved allowance money for and purchased for $44 from the local bookstore in TinyTown, OK.
$44? It had better have been all of the stories.
Yes, it was a beautiful 2 volume boxed set of the “4
56 short stories and four novels complete.”
It’s a must-have for Holmes fanatics (<—guilty as charged)
$240 at Amazon now
https://www.amazon.com/Annotated-Sherlock-Holmes-Fifty-Six-Hardcover/dp/B015X3XZ1Y/ref=m_pd_aw_vtp_sccl_1/144-0573873-7451452?pd_rd_w=DYkOB&content-id=amzn1.sym.a76f95fb-a4a4-49eb-a071-6bfaa047f900&pf_rd_p=a76f95fb-a4a4-49eb-a071-6bfaa047f900&pf_rd_r=291M4XZEKPMMZP7ZPAEN&pd_rd_wg=pwVa5&pd_rd_r=40185abc-3b16-4e24-b5f5-3d34a97daf93&pd_rd_i=B015X3XZ1Y&psc=1#aw-udpv3-customer-reviews_feature_div
Good Morning Again:
Lots of chaos out here. Last night I could see the flashing lights of response vehicles responding to the tornado.
We are fine.
I am shocked that they were able to get power on with all the winds we were experiencing last night.
We still need rain.
I hope its a great day for everyone.
Glad you’re okay.
👍
I checked on my siblings last night too.
They’re fine, but hail was awful.