If you have anger issues, this one is a great tool (h/t mindyourbusiness)
This week’s book:
Discourses and Selected Writings
Disclaimer: I’m not your Supervisor. These are my opinions after reading through these books a few times.
Epictetus was born a slave around 50 ad. His owner was Epaphroditus, a rich freedman who was once a slave of Nero. Though he was a slave Epictetus was sent to study philosophy under Musonius Rufus.
Epictetus was lame and there are some stories it was caused by his master and others that it was caused by disease.
He was a freedman when all philosophers were banished from Rome in 89 by the Emperor Domitian. He then started his school in Greece, and had many students. He did not leave any writings from his lessons, but one of his students, Flavius Arrian, took notes and wrote the Discourses.
Epictetus did not marry, had no children, and lived to be around 80-85. In retirement, he adopted a child that would have been abandoned and raised him with a woman.
He died sometime around AD 135.
He might be my favorite Stoic teacher. I love his bare bones and very straight forward approach.
Following is a paragraph-by-paragraph discussion of one of his lessons. Epictetus’s text appears in bold, my replies are in normal text.
Against Epicureans and Academics Part I
The propositions which are true and evident must of necessity be employed even by those who contradict them; and one might consider as perhaps the strongest proof of a proposition being evident the fact that even the man who contradicts it finds himself obliged at the same time to employ it. For example, if a man should contradict the proposition that there is a universal statement which is true, it is clear that he must assert the contrary, and say: No universal statement is true. Slave, this is not true, either. For what else does this assertion amount to than: If a statement is universal, it is false? Again, if a man comes forward and says, “I would have you know that nothing is knowable, but that everything is uncertain”; or if someone else says, “Believe me, and it will be to your advantage, when I say: One ought not to believe a man at all”; or again, someone else, “Learn from me, man, that it is impossible to learn anything; 5it is I who tell you this and I will prove it to you, if you wish,” what difference is there between these persons and—whom shall I say?—those who call themselves Academics? “O men,” say the Academics, “give your assent to the statement that no man assents to any statement; believe us when we say that no man can believe anybody.”
It is easy for most people to get sucked into believing a person because they are “charismatic”, or “a great speaker” but it is more important to actually listen to the words being spoken and look at the person’s actions.
So also Epicurus, when he wishes to do away with the natural fellowship of men with one another, at the same time makes use of the very principle that he is doing away with. For what does he say? “Be not deceived, men, nor led astray, nor mistaken; there is no natural fellowship with one another among rational beings; believe me. Those who say the contrary are deceiving you and leading you astray with false reasons.” Why do you care, then? Allow us to be deceived. Will you fare any the worse, if all the rest of us are persuaded that we do have a natural fellowship with one another, and that we ought by all means to guard it? Nay, your position will be much better and safer. Man, why do you worry about us, why keep vigil on our account, why light your lamp, why rise betimes, why write such big books? Is it to keep one or another of us from being deceived into the belief that the gods care for men, or is it to keep one or another of us from supposing that the nature of the good is other than pleasure?
Epictetus was obviously no fan of Epicurus, and wonders why it should bother Epicurus if they wanted to keep fellowship with like minded people. I agree with Epictetus that the more you study Epicurus the more empty the philosophy appears.
10For if this is so, off to your couch and sleep, and lead the life of a worm, of which you have judged yourself worthy; eat and drink and copulate and defecate and snore. What do you care how the rest of mankind will think about these matters, or whether their ideas be sound or not? For what have you to do with us? Come, do you interest yourself in sheep because they allow themselves to be shorn by us, and milked, and finally to be butchered and cut up? Would it not be desirable if men could be charmed and bewitched into slumber by the Stoics and allow themselves to be shorn and milked by you and your kind? Is not this something that you ought to have said to your fellow Epicureans only and to have concealed your views from outsiders, taking special pains to persuade them, of all people, that we are by nature born with a sense of fellowship, and that self-control is a good thing, so that everything may be kept for you? Or ought we to maintain this fellowship with some, but not with others? With whom, then, ought we to maintain it? With those who reciprocate by maintaining it with us, or with those who are transgressors of it? And who are greater transgressors of it than you Epicureans who have set up such doctrines?
If pleasure truly was Epicurus’s highest goal, then he is going against his own philosophy when he spends time trying to convince others, instead of enjoying himself.
I have known people that had a mindset that their pleasure was the most important thing to them. None of them had a good life from what I could see. It looks exhausting to be that self absorbed.
15What, then, was it that roused Epicurus from his slumbers and compelled him to write what he did? What else but that which is the strongest thing in men—nature, which draws a man to do her will though he groans and is reluctant? “For,” says she, “since you hold these anti-social opinions, write them down and bequeath them to others and give up your sleep because of them and become in fact yourself the advocate to denounce your own doctrines.” Shall we speak of Orestes as being pursued by the Furies and roused from his slumbers? But are not the Furies and the Avengers that beset Epicurus more savage? They roused him from sleep and would not let him rest, but compelled him to herald his own miseries, just as madness and wine compel the Galli.[2] Such a powerful and invincible thing is the nature of man. For how can a vine be moved to act, not like a vine, but like an olive, or again an olive to act, not like an olive, but like a vine? It is impossible, inconceivable. Neither, then, is it possible for a man absolutely to lose the affections of a man, and those who cut off their bodily organs are unable to cut off the really important thing—their sexual desires.
To Epicurus, living in accordance with nature meant to enjoy yourself as much as possible. To Epictetus it meant to be a responsible person and not be self-indulgent. I try to follow Epictetus’s vision and don’t see the appeal in Epicurus’s.
20So with Epicurus: he cut off everything that characterizes a man, the head of a household, a citizen, and a friend, but he did not succeed in cutting off the desires of human beings; for that he could not do, any more than the easy-going[3] Academics are able to cast away or blind their own sense-perceptions, although they have made every effort to do so.
All of the things Epictetus lists here is vital to being a fulfilled person and not just an empty vessel, constantly looking for the next thing to fill itself. The Academics may not be as obviously empty, because they can twist meanings and hide behind word salads. Somethings have been constant throughout history apparently.
Part II will be next week, it’s a little short this week because I was fixing the washing machine and got a late start on this.
Music is from the 4th Candlemass album-Tales of Creation, it is their best produced one to date and it is a little more “mainstream” sounding then the prior ones. I like it, but the first three are my favorites. It still has a good doom metal groove to it.
In case he has already move over, response to JI on dead thread:
That isn’t a rejoinder, that is Madison quoting paragraph 2.
And sorry to be OT immediately, no one respond to that for 30 minutes.
“I have known people that had a mindset that their pleasure was the most important thing to them”
I enjoyed my last job, enjoyed going to work early, often stayed late. I didn’t always enjoy some of those in administration however. I was glad to leave at the right time, businesses, like government, grow bureaucrats.
The creativity and anonymity that I had enjoyed dwindled, the newbies mostly liked the new bureaucracy ’cause it reduced their responsibility.
it’s a little short this week
I think I actually prefer a bit shorter – not a euphemism. It can dense and with the longer entries, it can get more difficult to focus on any one idea.
And is Epictetus the original Judge Nap? Not judging, just asking questions here?
And music wise, if your not familiar with Solitude Aeturnus, similar vibe to Candlemass – here they are covering a Candlemass song. A good doom band from my perspective, especially the album “Adagio”
Depends, how far off the socratic method is he?
Why does everyone who tries Socra Tea fall down? It’s the Hem Lock.
Thanks, Ron, I look forward to Fridays. Always some thing to think about.
Friday is yer thinkin day?
No, he thinks about Fridays.
Hopefully not TGI Fridays. There are better places to eat.
They started as a singles bar.
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/how-t-g-i-fridays-helped-invent-the-singles-bar
Fridays:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080219
True story: at IBM, the employees were not expected to work on Fridays. Fridays were literally “thinking days.”
It’s no wonder IBM handed us that fab for free.
People who believe that “their pleasure was the most important thing to them” often pursue the wrong kind of pleasure. A hedonistic lifestyle of physical pleasure is usually a bad long-term plan. No memory of physical pleasure compares to the joys of family or actual accomplishments.
Well, Drake beat me to it.
Besisdes, after a while a life of nothing but pleasure could easily end up boring.
Assume you have enough wealth to afford, say, beef Wellington every day, a stable of expensive cars (take your choice), an eighteen-room mansion in the Hamptons and a ridiculously expensive house in the Caribbean and a constantly changing rotation of gorgeous sex partners. Give you odds that after a month or two it’d get old. There’s a reason candy manufacurers encourage their line workers to eat all they want.
It is easy for most people to get sucked into believing a person because they are “charismatic”, or “a great speaker” but it is more important to actually listen to the words being spoken and look at the person’s actions – so you re saying while a great speaker Kamala may not be he best leader?
Reminds me of the video clips of Trump during the 2016 campaign, where somebody overdubbed different voices. Trump’s words in a posh British accent suddenly had more credibility. Trump’s words in a lisping cartoonishly gay accent were just hilarious.
If pleasure truly was Epicurus’s highest goal, then he is going against his own philosophy when he spends time trying to convince others, instead of enjoying himself. – maybe convincing others was a great pleasure, i am not sure i agree with this
To Epicurus, living in accordance with nature meant to enjoy yourself as much as possible. To Epictetus it meant to be a responsible person and not be self-indulgent – what if e.g. Jocko Willink enjoys himself thee most while being responsible?
mostly joking but it does depend on what people enjoy. Musk may enjoy the psychotic pursuit of his goal and may end up benefiting mankind
Epicureans don’t have pleasure as their highest goal. Their highest goal is the absence of pain and fear.
i say we should all avoid pleasure by renouncing steak and guns for one year
No way!
You just want to hoard them for yourself!
I feel like you’re calling me out here, Pie.
must be psychic
If you want to give them up, I can probably give them a good home here for a while Sean. 🙂
No guarantees that there will be no tragic boating accidents.
This can’t be right
GOP Senate candidate Bernie Moreno is dismissing a damaging last-minute report about him that punctuated an increasingly nasty primary, as former President Donald Trump heads to the state to join his final campaign swing.
After a pre-planned meet-and-greet event here, Moreno said an Associated Press story — which linked his email to a 2008 account “looking for young guys to have fun” made on Adult Friend Finder, a website typically used to arrange sexual encounters — amounted to “salacious lies that are intended to be a last-minute smear campaign.”
——-
And the former president is still standing by Moreno, his endorsed candidate in Ohio’s Senate Republican primary. With just days to go in the close race, Moreno, Trump and Sen. J.D. Vance (R-Ohio) are at a critical juncture in perhaps the most important GOP Senate primary on the calendar.
But Trump (and Republicans in general) hate teh gheys and want to put them all in camps.
It’s not gay if one of them is dressed like a girl.
(A) Who cares if he’s gay?
(B) Am I supposed to take AP stories at face value now?
Also, while R’s may have been behind the curve in accepting Homosexuality, they have accepted it in their own way, and these attacks seem sad and out of date at this point.
Democrats launched a late $2.7 million ad buy to boost Moreno in the final days of the primary, a last-minute effort to elevate who they see as the weakest candidate headed into the general election. If they succeed, it could be an early blemish on GOP efforts to turn the page on Trump’s ability to dictate the party’s Senate candidates — widely seen as a huge problem in the 2022 midterm debacle.
Look at that. Trump is destroying democracy.
Which is it? The Dems want Moreno or not? Because some of them are running ads, and others are running a smear campaign.
Per the local news, the Dems want Moreno, and think that Sherrod Brown would beat him.
To while away the last little bit of the workday, I started contemplating dinner.
I have plenty of good food in the house which agrees with me and which I normally have no issue with. It’s just that as I think about it, my reaction is ‘meh’. I know after I cook it, the food will be perfectly fine and I’ll finish whatever I make, but I’m just having an “I’d rather something else” reaction with no idea what that something else might be.
in Romania something else is most times shawarma
That dish isn’t sold around here. We get gyros or iskender kebab.
And no, that does not sound appealing today.
Well that sounds to me like a craving for beef tartar or tuna sashimi
Question: when you made that image of Korean MMO Characters protesting, what did you actually ask it to do? I’m wondering about what was “written” on the signs.
That kind of information cost 7.99
I’m going to try one more time to answer and hope the internal server doesn’t error on me again.
I gave the system a clip art of protestors to resample and asked for female protestors in chainmail bikinis. As image generation software, it doesn’t have enough brainpower to generate anything but gibberish for text on signs, but knows signs have text, so it produced characters. The clip art signs were blank.
I would have figured a True Irishman® such as yourself would be thinking about corned beef, colcannon, and cabbage; washed down with some beer dyed green.
To Pope Jimbo from the dead thread:
Austin voters banned Uber and Lyft too — for about a year. Then repealed it. Turns out tourists want to get around.
Today I put on a new shirt, I’ve had it maybe 20 years but never wore it. Anyway it still had the tag in it, made in Bangladesh. I was telling my wife the story, she said “probably ’cause the labor is cheaper”. Probably so, then I wondered about Haiti. Surely as a poor country the labor must be cheap. Why haven’t companies moved in to Haiti? It would seem like an easy decision. The only conclusion I could come up with is that the government is so bad, private property non existent that investments would be lost.
Well, when you have literal raider gangs, murder in the street to the level where the corpses are being left to rot, and official administrations which fall like dominos so they don’t even pretend to be anything but thieves – it’s not the best place to set up shop.
But is that the natural state of mankind or learned behavior? Somehow there is money for the gangs to have guns and ammo.
Haiti is too libertarian
No protection of private property. Avoiding the state just taking the property from you after you built it, the cost of security (and loss) would most likely overshadow any savings from the lower labor costs.
Oh, and traditionally, you want your offshore sweatshops to be far enough away that the people you’re selling to can’t easily see the conditions there.
There’s also the issue of how good the labor would actually be.
One of the biggest problems is that property rights are basically nonexistent in Haiti, which goes to your last point. And of course, you have the usual corruption and bureaucracy to deal with, but the government is weak so you also have little rule of law. On top of that, the country has a history of falling apart at a moment’s notice. It’s not an environment that is enticing to investment. They could fix it themselves, of course, like many poor countries have, but the culture tends to run in the opposite direction of what it would need to be for that to happen. To be frank, they always think it’s somebody else’s fault or problem to solve, not their own, so nothing changes.
Aren’t we about due for a corporation to hire a private army and take control of one of the failing countries?
+ 1 United Fruit.
“They could fix it themselves, of course, like many poor countries have”
I am wondering if that is what the gangs are, an attempt, such as it is, to reassert local control. Is it pretty? No. But, so it goes.
Ya gotta have 3 things for whatever ya wanna call the kind of prosperous, dynamic economy we all like:
– private property
– free trade (free not meaning 0 cost, but flowing relatively unhindered by natural or man-made barriers)
– predictable laws (and they ain’t even gotta be all that great – just predictable)
Haiti’s not scoring well on any of those.
no idea what that something else might be.
I’m thinking very seriously about bacon and eggs for lunch, while I’m out and about.
I’ve often marveled how (((they))) can craft weapons that only kill women and children. What I didn’t realize was how methodical, consistent and unrelenting (((they))) are in their genociding.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers
I cannot believe the fine upstanding gentlemen of hamas would lie
What about the barbaric savages that make up the overwhelming majority of their membership?
I’m trying to answer Not Adahn’s question but keep getting internal server errors.
Testing posting.
I was wondering how that logic went. Because if you had actually said “signs,” then I would have thought that they’d have actual writing on them (even if gibberish), since a sign by definition has writing on them. Unless you specified the writing to be some nonsensical symbols.
But maybe if they were “protestors,” then it might have been creating “objects commonly carried by protestors” which would explain the writing-ish markings.
I have the exact prompt back home. I can look it up after I commute. I may have asked for signs, but I know I asked for protestors. I also know that stable diffusion can’t generate real words even when it tries.
I did not know about that limitation. That breaks my analysis.
I don’t think I’ve seen an AI pic that had actual words on signs or anywhere. It’s always just symbolish looking marks.
I’ve seen ones with words, but the words are usually slightly off (or duplicated). Such as the mayo beer picture that the Sharpshooter posted a while back. Or the local pizza place that had an ad with three pizza boxes. The bottom one says pizza, the second one pi2za, the third one looks like an attempt at a Cyrillic pizza.
The exact prompt was:
But the clip art had three figures, so it drew three.
It’s a dog’s life.
https://twitter.com/Yoda4ever/status/1767300049074315296
Fellow Ohioans, is there a U.S Senate candidate in the GOP primary next week who’s less bad than the other two? Trump endorsed Moreno and DeWine endorsed Dolan, but I don’t consider either endorsement much of a point in either candidate’s favor. 😒 Most of all I want to try to get Sherrod Brown beaten in November.