“To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the
civilized, merely the domesticated.”
In one of the articles in the AMST series Ozymandias made a comment (and I’m paraphrasing, I apologize if I get it wrong, but I think the gist is correct) something along the lines of being thrilled (content? the exact nature of the emotion is perhaps important in this context!) to get the bad guys. This was, I believe, in the context of providing air support for ground troops – “our guys”.
I had a good friend in high school who was dedicated to getting into the Air Force Academy. Straight-laced as could be – would underage drinking compromise that goal? OK, not doing it. Do I need to follow all the rules regardless of whether they make any sense? OK, I’ll do that. Singular focus. Well, he did make it and has since risen pretty high in the AF as I might have expected. Nearing the end of his Academy days, I was talking to him about what was next. It was pretty clear he wasn’t going to get a fighter, but he thought “Maybe the F-111 – you get to drop more metal on people”. You can probably chalk that up to 20-something braggadocio – but then one just wonders ‘why is that something would raise your stature to the point it becomes a useful brag?’. He ended up flying tankers.
The internet abounds with clips, especially with the Russia-Ukraine war, of slaughter (perhaps not surprisingly drone and/or remote fighter footage – not new, see Gulf War I) set to upbeat techno music with the underlying joyful “we got em!” ethos.
I’m using these examples, though imperfect, as a proxy for the concept of ‘the other’ and the seemingly innate human ability to exclude the other, to the point of justifying horrific things. Obviously, if it needs saying, these situations are mostly perfectly symmetric – ‘my’ side is not the bad guys; one can easily rotate the point of view, and ask the same question from the other side. It is seemingly innate to the human condition.
It has always made me uneasy and I don’t ‘get’ the mentality. But is obviously extremely common, even the norm of history and hence represents something that has a very strong evolutionary advantage, at least in human systems under a few Dunbar Numbers. I want to stay on the individual level here, but it’s an interesting question if that evolutionary advantage persists when translated to large scale modern societies – but it certainly seems to have conferred civilizational advantages (and personal breeding advantages!) over the last thousands of years; Ghengis Kahn, Greeks, Babylonians, Romans, etc.
These are just specific examples of something that makes me wonder: “Am I broken?”
I seem to be the odd one out. Even at the level of combat sports – I don’t like ‘crushing’ the other guy, the face off at weigh-ins for boxing, MMA makes me cringe. Even the posturing at an NFL game, jumping up and racing to an open spot to wiggle your ass. Not to say I’m not competitive – I am very competitive – but not when it comes to physical violence or dominating “the other”. Hence, broken, as it seems to be built into to male humans at the biological level from what was a successful evolutionary strategy for our ancestors. So successful that it seems to be a fundamental driver of human progress. The fact that human females largely respond to it in males and that it persists to this day are very strong indicators of a successful evolutionary path. As an aside on that last one, one just has to work in a bar to see that dynamic. I was particularly attuned to it because I was going to be the one to have to deal with it when it went sideways. A not insignificant fraction of male confrontations and violence where quite clearly deliberately instigated by female partners or friends. Of course there were all sorts of confrontations and fights just between males without a female anywhere near. But it’s all tangled together, created by what was a successful evolutionary strategy for our species.
“To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the
civilized, merely the domesticated.”
So am I capable of mayhem and just controlling it? I’d like to think so, but I’ve never actually demonstrated it. Is having this underlying characteristic of seeing ‘The Other’ as the enemy to be destroyed (and that translating to everyday minor interactions – “WE won the game; WE’RE going the crush THEM in the playoffs; Beat the other team!”) a precondition of being capable of (effectively inflicting) mayhem and hence having a foil against domestication? I hope not, because the very nature of that characteristic being a fundamental aspect of what it is to be human, means that you have to be capable of mayhem, if only for purely defensive reasons – to avoid “domestication”. But it often seems that those most capable and willing to commit mayhem do have that underlying evolutionary trait strongly expressed.
We really are just apes with cool toys.
But think – we could have cooler toys!
I want night vision goggles.
>.>
You don’t have NODs? Jeez…
https://steeleindustries.com/product/l3harris-bnvd-1531-2376-fom-in-stock/
I think civilization evolved quicker than we did as individuals. so we have traits held over that may or may not be useful. For example, our “fight or flight” response kept us safe from predators, but now it’s triggered by non-lethal situations like public speaking, and that’s stressing us out.
I think I’m broken in the same way you are. I kind of feel bad when we beat someone by a lot in hockey games. Close games, I feel better about. My mom and dad have never been competitive either. Is this nature or nurture? I’m leaning toward nurture, because the concept of “the other” is at the root of every atrocity, and those atrocities are still happening right now.
Thanks for these head-scratcher articles, I enjoy them.
Like most things I think it’s likely a combination of nature and nurture. An individual may be born with certain personality traits that are more or less likely to be expressed in certain behaviors, but whether and to what extent those behaviors may actually be expressed will depend on their environment and upbringing.
I kind of feel bad when we beat someone by a lot in hockey games.
I actually don’t. Not that I, skater of ankles, have ever beaten anybody at hockey. But I don’t really feel bad beating someone badly in a competition, mostly just disappointed. The contest was clearly not a test of pushing my skills, so there is no joy of accomplishment.
nurture
I lean towards mostly nature for this. In small evolutionary groups, there was an advantage to that distrust (but also an advantage in cooperation and bringing in new breeding stock – unfortunately the later can also be accomplished with very little cooperation). But if it’s nature, that also means that this confusion with respect to ‘my team vs theirs’ probably also has an evolutionary advantage. Perhaps just not one that manifests as readily or commonly as the team conceptualization.
I’ll amend my comment. In sled hockey, teams are divided into tiers by skill level, from 1-5. I have a teammate who’s fine playing at tier 5 and dominating all the time. I’d rather play at a higher tier and be challenged. If we dominate another team, I think one of us was placed in the wrong tier.
That’s one reason we’re skipping the national tournament this year. The organizers have gotten bad at placing teams into competitive tiers. It’s no fun for anyone.
But I don’t really feel bad beating someone badly in a competition, mostly just disappointed. The contest was clearly not a test of pushing my skills, so there is no joy of accomplishment.
#metoo
I think civilization evolved quicker than we did as individuals – i phrase it like “culture and technology evolve faster than biology”
Well, you are literally beating the handicapped.
Yeah, we are a bunch of assholes.
During the 91 Gulf War, my battalion went through one of the breaches on the Kuwaiti border. A road through the minefields had been blasted and bulldozed by engineers.
In the middle of the road through the minefield was a single dead Iraqi. His upper body was intact but from the waste down he had been run over by hundreds of vehicles including tanks. We ran him over too because to avoiding him would put us in the minefield (you could actually see the mines because the wind had blown the sand away).
I’ve always wondered if he was just some dumbass in the wrong place, or the bravest guy that ever lived.
I was expecting you to say that there were multiple jokes made about his upper/lower half.
Not sure what that says about me.
There was some weak attempts at dark humor, but seeing it up close was more of holy shit reaction.
So, you are saying he never did find his sand legs?
I truly believe that all humans are capable of mayhem, given the proper incentives.
From the standpoint of civilization? The eternal problem is, “Who creates those incentives, and why?”
Good point. (both).
Maybe the underlying issue is the individuals ability to ask that later question “Who creates those incentives, and why?”
In small groups representative of the bulk of our evolutionary history, there was more direct knowledge and control of that, so less value/advantage in questioning us vs them as an proximate cause to unleash mayhem. Of course there’s still an advantage to being able to ask that question, so it persists, if in a smaller portion of the population.
Anatomically modern humans have been around what, 100K years? Civilized (to some degree) humans for 10K years. Modern civilized not even 1K years. Civilized and prosperous beyond human imagination (of even 200 years ago) for 100 years.
Civilization is a paper thin veneer.
Anatomically modern humans are 330k years.
Define modern civilization.
330k
Fine, that only further extends my point. And I would roughly define modern civilization as post Medieval, coinciding with the rise of the nation-state (which is the source of so much of our modern misery). So clearly less than 1K years.
I’m not so sure, Evil. Physically equipped (arms, legs, etc.)? Sure. Mentally? Even in wartime, a lot of soldiers don’t fire their weapons in combat, or if they do, don’t fire them with intent. And that’s an environment, and training, to maximize the incentives for mayhem. In civilian settings, many (most?) people instinctively flinch from any kind of physical confrontation and simply don’t have the mindset to get stuck in.
And that’s just the intent/mindset for mayhem. Depending on what you want to count as mayhem, a certain level of capability. Ineffectual flailing doesn’t create mayhem, in my mind, and I think there’s a fair number (a lot?) of people who aren’t capable of more than that.
Now, run people through some kind of shitshow where they reprogram or die, and you’ll get more people (the survivors, anyway) who are physically, mentally, and otherwise capable of mayhem. But they aren’t really the same people any more.
Of course this land is dangerous/All of the animals are capably murderous
Our cave man ancestors
Us versus Them
Since the beginning of time
Until the end of time
If there isn’t a distinct “other” available we are perfectly capable of coming up with a new measure to divide up into teams. England fought a generation long civil war between branches of the same family distinguished by the color of the rose on their version of the family arms. Arguments about minor points of religious doctrine killed 1 person in 3 in what is now Germany. Fans of a game so tame that it frequently ends in scoreless ties murder each other over which team they support. We have a need to belong to a tribe, and we’ll use anything to create one, and distinguish it from others. Hell, we’ve formed a tribe based on not liking tribes here.
Now, the Star-Bell Sneetches had bellies with stars. The Plain-Belly Sneetches had none upon thars.
Sneetches get steeches.
Thank you EvilSheldon
I like “crushing the other team” but yes, I despise all the strutting and posing.
“What is best in life?”
“To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.”
Makes sports hard to watch. Pro golf and tennis seems to be the only ones left with any class.
There’s many reasons I drifted away from football over the years. Punishing defensive play was one, but the strutting and glorification of that ‘respect’ culture was another (let’s not even talk about the political posturing).
I started following hockey as it seemed devoid of a lot of that – the celebrations seemed genuine and focused on the accomplishment and celebrating with your team-mates. Then they shut down for covid and I sort of … got high.. and wandered off.
Yeah, the strutting and posing are turnoffs for me too. Act like you’ve done it before.
It is the de-ritualized haka.
“It is the de-ritualized haka.”
That, too, has become more posing and strutting than what it was decades ago. Complete with the other team “disrespecting” the haka when required.
Let’s not forget the Team Red vs Team Blue.
I’ve watched some of the Ukrainian War videos to try to understand the current tactics. The Internet cheerleading for death is disgusting.
The war itself seems to be a worst nightmare of bad scenarios we went through in infantry school (trench warfare, machine guns, mortars, armor, and heavy artillery) with the killer drones flying everywhere added in for extra terror.
After three years of this it’s time to negotiate. And yes, Ukraine is going to have to cede some territory.
Another thing for the left to go apeshit over.
Hence the desire to steal some billions of rubles – anything they can do to stick it to Putin.
The horror of giving some territory to the political masters that are the successors to the political masters that created Ukraine in the first place.
The rules-based-system sucks for those who don’t make the rules.
The shock of territorial concessions after losing a war seems strange to me. The maps look different after most wars. Mexican-American, Franco-Prussian, WWI, WWII…
Let’s not forget the soundtrack.
You have some filmed drone attack with either martial music or a techno beat. It serves to further detract from the human carnage.
The Internet cheerleading for death is disgusting.
Does one *need* that ability to cheer-lead – manifest in “that’s the other, they’re getting what they deserve, go team us” – for death to be able to engage in that mayhem? And despite my wishes to the contrary, given the nature of being humane, it seems that it is often absolutely necessary to engage in that mayhem, or you will be “domesticated”. So does my inability to cheer-lead, to see it as a black-and-white team A vs team B mean that I’m not up to the task of mayhem in those cases where it *is* absolutely necessary?
I seem to be the odd one out.
In a group of libertarians? Hahahahaha – why do you think we all hang out together?
lol I am a terrible representative of practically every in-group I’m supposedly part of.
Get five libertarians in a room, get six opinions.
Libertarians, Baptists, and Jews. The finalists in the Olympic schisming competition.
One little branch of Christianity, while ignoring the rest of the tree? One could even argue the Jews are just the roots to that trunk.
One little branch of Christianity, while ignoring the rest of the tree?
It’s splitters all the way down.
Not splinters?
From the One True Cross?
The rest of you aren’t really libertarians.
TEAM psychosis
It was not enough for Sen. Mark Kelly, D-Ariz., to announce that he had gotten rid of his Tesla. He did it on X, the social media platform headed by Elon Musk, who took over as CEO of the electric vehicle company in 2008.
Kelly made his reason for abandoning the car that one time represented progress and automotive and environmental achievement: Musk and his politics.
“Every time I get in this car in the last 60 days or so, it reminds me of just how much damage Elon Musk and Donald Trump is doing to our country,” Kelly posted.
Other well-known figures have dumped Teslas as well, including actor Jason Bateman, who said driving it was like “driving around with a Trump sticker” back in October.
The other in the flesh. Enemy, pariah, outcast, vermin.
We’ll grind his bones to make our bread.
At this rate they are going to make me want to buy a Tesla, and I might be able to get one cheap.
If I had a place to charge it…
Everyone already knows that you’re a gormless soy-boy, Kelly. You don’t need to keep reminding us.
Arizona is blessed with a surplus of ciphers in elected office. Grijalva (PBUH) probably never voted against leadership once in many years of Representativing. I’d be shocked if Kelly ever has.
Musk is exposing fraud and waste! OH NOES!!!
That clip of Obama pointing all the fraud and waste needs to be thrown in their faces on a constant loop until they shut the fuck up already.
We like to unleash mayhem on tosu every Fall. We don’t even want their women.
At this point we just do it because we can.
O/T: per the AM re auto pen, this isn’t just about pardons. Opening this door creates a crack in all of Biden’s auto signed actions, such as any law or executive order.
And, contrary to any TDS, does so very publicly.
This is possibly the smartest thing Trump has done.
(We will now return to our regular ZWAKation )
Ronnie and Tarita Bagley purchased a Tesla Y a year ago, thinking Musk was an environmental revolutionary. But one month into DOGE’s work under the Trump administration, the Bagleys determined the fate of the EV in their garage.
“We had to get rid of that car,” Ronnie Bagley said. “Our personal morals and values were at odds with what he represents, which is divisiveness, inequality and chaos.”
And so, two weeks ago, they traded in their Tesla for a Cadillac Lyric, an electric SUV.
Traded for a Cadillac, a brand synonymous with equity and inclusion.
A thought – how many of the people trading in their Teslas, were laughing at Kid Rock pouring out the Bud Light a few years ago?
Yup. Nothing says being an environmentalist like conspicuous consumption.
I hope the Cadillac has Don Henley’s obligatory Deadhead sticker.
They should have bought a Fisker. 😉
It would be Karma.
“Our personal morals and values were at odds with what he represents, which is divisiveness, inequality and chaos.”
Translation: Someone instructed us that what we think has changed.
I like a different Solzhenitsyn quote: ““The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either — but right through every human heart — and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years.”
But I suppose mayhem isn’t necessarily evil. After all, Jesus committed mayhem when he kicked the money changers out of the temple.
But I suppose mayhem isn’t necessarily evil.
Absolutely. Mayhem is necessary. I’m just not sure if it’s possible to engage in even the ‘good’ (necessary) mayhem if one doesn’t have that underlying ‘us vs. them’ ability to compartmentalize – that’s probably the underlying question of my poorly articulated musings above.
You have the ‘us vs. them’ mentality, we all do. This site stinks of it, and on occasion, the stink is so vehement that we wish violence on ‘them’. As I joked (somewhat) about crucifying those who played both sides of the govt-largesse to NGOs this morning. That doesn’t mean I have nails and hammer in hand, ready to go.
You have the ‘us vs. them’ mentality, we all do.
To a certain degree, of course. But there *are* degrees and how quickly/able one is to able tip into the realm of real mayhem is the question. There’s also a question of they type of ‘us vs them’ too. Here, I think, very few people would be having an us vs them reaction, let alone tipping over to wishing violence, if the ‘them’ didn’t insist on visiting mayhem on the ‘us’.
At least ten years ago I had a discussion with a friend who is a very wealthy amateur racer and car guy. He had just come back from a race at Elkhart Lake. One of his friends had let him drive a new Tesla Plaid. He said the thing was a rocket ship (in a straight line), but we both were completely dumfounded by Tesla’s share price. And it was a lot cheaper then than it is now.
“It’s symbolic, but it’s incredibly meaningful in its symbolism,”
Because as NPR is forced to reluctantly admit it’s already prohibited by state and federal laws.
https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2025/03/18/nx-s1-5326118/segregation-federal-contracts-far-regulation-trump
I was pretty good at organized structured mayhem (sports), but random bar fight violence? fuck that? I never felt the need to “prove” whatever it is that drives that. And let her defend her own precious honor.
Musk is exposing fraud and waste! OH NOES!!!
Pay no attention to that swindle behind the curtain.
The Internet cheerleading for death is disgusting.
I know a few lefties that are excited about “dead Russians”. A 180 similar to “big pharma is evil” > “we should deny health care to the unvaxed.”
“A not insignificant fraction of male confrontations and violence where quite clearly deliberately instigated by female partners or friends.”
Illustrated: https://youtu.be/w1i2ehskGUM?si=gQKSfWXp6JtHmUGG&t=140
Sometimes it’s not even intentional. I had an issue with a couple with a dog with the woman holding the leash. She’s not paying any attention and the dog almost wraps the leash around my ankles. My exact words as it is happening is “Oh, for crying out loud” and she starts to apologize.
Before she can even finish the guy decides to start yelling at me to have some tolerance and how they live here. I’ve said a total of four words and he’s gone ballistic. I say “really” multiple times. I walk away and he decides to F-bomb me. At that point I dressed him down in true NYC fashion. I’m assuming he was originally from the Midwest from both attitude and deer in the headlights as I started on him. He was twice my size and half my age.
It was only after I walked away I realized it’s because he was trying either protect the woman from me or show his dominance. It’s rather amazing just how much both his and my behavior is in human nature.
I dunno man seems to me you lost on the dominance front
By default. I’m small and old.
and also you look like a small anime cat or something
It was disturbing to some Tesla owners that Trump acted as a car salesman last week, having a fleet of Musk’s cars on display on the White House lawn.
“What was that?” said Andrew Johnson, of Scottsdale, Arizona. He rents his Tesla out through the Turo car app. “That display made me sick, from the standpoint of why is the president of the United States pushing cars for the richest man in the world? That was it for me.”
Something completely different
President Joe Biden pushed electric vehicles as part of his infrastructure plan and vision for a greener future from Dearborn, Michigan, on Tuesday and in pitching the ease of electric, gave the public a rare visual of a president behind a steering wheel.
While test driving Ford’s F-150 Lightning pickup during an unscheduled stop at a Ford testing site, Biden pulled up to reporters and said, “This sucker is quick.”
Donning his classic aviator shades, Biden drove the electric truck through an empty lot, before telling reporters it “feels great” to be behind the wheel and answering, “I would,” when asked if he would buy one. One Secret Service agent rode in the passenger seat alongside the president.
Henry Ford is an icon of the left.
“Biden pulled up to reporters and said, “This sucker is quick.” Donning his classic aviator shades…”
Oh, for fuck’s sake. He must be good sniffin’ material if he can slurp that much ‘edge’ out of Pony Boy Joe onto page. (He’s a spitter. Spits out prose, but always swallows the essence.)
Aviator shades, the shades of choice for douchebags the world over.
https://i.etsystatic.com/12219349/r/il/1188b7/1365934872/il_fullxfull.1365934872_eqei.jpg
innate human ability to exclude the other, to the point of justifying horrific things – and it is best to keep this in mind rather than top pretend we moved past it.
“Look, the future of the auto industry is electric. There’s no turning back,” Biden said.
Indisputably.
A not insignificant fraction of male confrontations and violence where quite clearly deliberately instigated by female partners or friends.
This is like saying water is wet.
HEI PutridMeat I will FLY to AMERICA and KICK YOUR AASS!!!!!!!
Sorry Pie, you do you, but I don’t really swing that way. To each their own and all, but…. Oh, you said ‘KICK’; Never mind.
If you pass through Cincinnati on this invasion I’ll buy you a drink.
Jar O’ Honey with your name on it , Pie. Stop in and say “Howdy”
Honey Pie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ELUBYZ61o4
This seems like a really good use of shareholder funding. So glad we bailed them out.
Cadillac Will Pay $450 Million Anti-Dilution Fee to Join Formula 1
https://www.autoweek.com/racing/formula-1/a64218356/cadillac-will-pay-450-million-anti-dilution-fee-join-formula-1/?taid=67d97d8eea5620000169cc00&utm_campaign=trueAnthem_manual&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter
I would say get American drivers but there aren’t any good ones
I’m an excellent driver.
light weight and easy to swing, fast and forgiving, while also promoting a high launch for those with moderate swing speed.
Dad lets him drive real slow on the driveway.
You’d think the other teams would pitch in to help with the fee. I mean, Cadillac will save them from bringing up the rear. That’s gotta be worth something.
Cadillac Will Pay $450 Million Anti-Dilution Fee to Join Formula 1
That’s fair. After all, just think of the useful technology they will derive for their production cars from being in F1.
*guffaws, slaps knee*
“Trump Admin Moves To Reinstate Over 24,000 Federal Workers After Obama Judge Blocks Path”
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/trump-admin-moves-reinstate-over-24000-federal-workers-after-obama-judge-blocks-path
Isn’t it in the employment contracts for the feds that probationary employees can be fired for any reason or no reason? Why not just let them go because they’re not needed?
Why not just let them go because they’re not needed?
Why don’t these fucking worthless judges instruct the fired employees to produce evidence they are necessary and providing some sort of valuable service?
Haha, I crack myself up.
Nice head piece article P Meat.
“To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the
civilized, merely the domesticated.”
There are many more domesticated folks in this country than there used to be. I don’t want to, but will commit mayhem if required. The people that want, need, and get off on mayhem are not civilized. They would be at home on the steppes of Asia in the 13th century, but not someone I want around me.
I also don’t feel great afterwards, just like I don’t feel happy or good after hunting and killing an animal (deer) or poisoning vermin. There are things that need to be done and you have to be capable of doing them.