Stoic Friday XIII

by | Apr 14, 2023 | Advice, LifeSkills, Musings | 158 comments

Last Week

The Practicing Stoic

Meditations

How to Be a Stoic

How to Think Like a Roman Emperor

If you have anger issues, this one is a great tool (h/t mindyourbusiness)

This week’s book:

Seneca’s Letters from a Stoic

Disclaimer: I’m not your Supervisor. These are my opinions after reading through these books a few times.

Picking up where I left off with Seneca’s letters to his friend and student, Lucilius Junior, an official in Sicily.

Following is a paragraph-by-paragraph discussion of the letter. Seneca’s text appears in bold, my replies are in normal text.

 

ON QUIBBLING AS UNWORTHY OF THE PHILOSOPHER

I SHALL reply later to the letter you sent me while you were on your journey – it was as long as the journey itself! I must first take myself aside and deliberate what advice I should give. For you yourself, before consulting me as you are doing, gave long thought to the question whether you should consult me at all, so I ought to be giving this question of advice far longer thought, on the principle that it takes you more time to solve a problem than to set it.

Because the question posed by Lucilius was a very thoughtful one, Seneca wanted to be sure his answer was at least as thoughtful. Sometimes it is too easy to give a flippant or half thought out answer when asked a difficult question. I remember when a good friend of mine was having some marital problems because his wife was crazy. EVERYONE was instantly advising him to get divorced, and he asked me what I thought, since out of our group, I was the only one that had been married for a long time. I advised him that if they got divorced, he would not be a Dad to his 2 young daughters, because his wife would move back to where she is from and he would just be the guy they saw maybe on holidays and probably a couple weeks every summer. I also asked him to consider that with his wife having mental issues(nothing dangerous, more anger at him for no reason) what kind of life would his daughters have with her because as an active duty Marine his chances of retaining custody were slim to none. He told me that I was the only person that told him anything like that and he appreciated the fact my answer was a lot more thoughtful than anyone else’s advice. Last time I talked to him, his wife had calmed down and they were happy again.

Particularly when one course is to your interest and another to mine – or does this make me sound like an Epicurean again? No, if a thing is in your interest it is also in my own
interest. Otherwise, if any matter that affects you is no concern of mine, I am not a friend. Friendship creates a community of interest between us in everything. We have neither successes nor setbacks as individuals; our lives have a common end. No one can lead a happy life if he thinks only of himself and turns everything to his own purposes. You should live for the other person if you wish to live for yourself. The assiduous and scrupulous cultivation of this bond, which leads to our associating with our fellow-men and believes in the existence of a common law for all mankind, contributes more than anything else to the maintenance of that more intimate bond I was mentioning, friendship. A person who shares much with a fellow human being will share everything with a friend.

The Epicureans believed that one should have friends to benefit themselves while the Stoics believed a friendship should be mutually beneficial. The more advanced Stoics believed they should assist their friends and this was the purpose of friendship. I do not have any close friends in my life, but I do try to be beneficial to my acquaintances when needed.

What I should like those subtle thinkers – you know the ones I mean, my peerless Lucilius – to teach me is this, what my duties are to a friend and  to a man, rather than the number of senses in which the expression ‘friend’ is used and how many different meanings the word ‘man’ has. Before my very eyes wisdom and folly are taking their separate stands:
which shall I join, whose side am I to follow? For one person ‘man’ is equivalent to ‘friend’, for another ‘man’ and ‘friend’ are far from being identified, and in making a friend one man will be seeking an asset while another will be making himself an asset to the other; and in the midst of all this what you people do for me is pull words about and cut up syllables. One is led to believe that unless one has constructed syllogisms of the craftiest kind, and reduced fallacies to a compact form in which a false conclusion is derived from a true premise, one will not be in a position to distinguish what one should aim at and what one should avoid. It makes one ashamed – that men of our advanced years should turn a thing as serious as this into a game.

People have been playing games with language as long as we have had a language. I have always hated when people parse words and try to get clever with definitions. Maybe because I am a straightforward person that seems like lying with extra steps. I remember a funny bit from Lewis Black when Clinton was being questioned about Monica Lewinsky and he said, “That depends on the definition of ‘is'”. “You’re the leader of the free world, you know the definition of ‘is’!” I do not parse words or quibble over definitions, if I am talking with someone and they want to do that, I won’t waste my time.

‘Mouse is a syllable, and a mouse nibbles cheese; therefore, a syllable nibbles cheese.’ Suppose for the moment I can’t detect the fallacy in that.  What danger am I placed in by such lack of insight? What serious consequences are there in it for me? What I have to fear, no doubt, is the possibility, one of these days, of my catching a syllable in a mousetrap or
even having my cheese eaten up by a book if I’m not careful. Unless perhaps the following train of logic is a more acute one: ‘Mouse is a syllable, and a syllable does not nibble cheese; therefore, a mouse does not nibble cheese.’ What childish fatuities these are! Is this what we philosophers acquire wrinkles in our brows for? Is this what we let our
beards grow long for? Is this what we teach with faces grave and pale?

It is impossible to have a serious conversation with a quibbler. I agree with Seneca that getting educated and then using that education to dissect words and change definitions seems a waste of intellect.  Today people can do or say obviously racist things and then defend themselves by saying, “That’s not racist because racism needs to be on the powerful side”. When someone points out the actual definition of racism, it devolves into arguing definitions instead of arguing right and wrong. I think that’s intentional.

 

Shall I tell you what philosophy holds out to humanity? Counsel. One person is facing death, another is vexed by poverty, while another is tormented by wealth – whether his own or someone else’s; one man is appalled by his misfortunes while another longs to get away from his own prosperity; one man is suffering at the hands of men, another at the
hands of the gods. What’s the point of concocting whimsies for me of the sort I’ve just been mentioning? This isn’t the place for fun – you’re called in to help the unhappy. You’re pledged to bring succor to the shipwrecked, to those in captivity, to the sick, the needy and men who are just placing their heads beneath the executioner’s uplifted axe. Where
are you off to? What are you about? The person you’re engaging in word-play with is in fear – go to his aid.…* All mankind are stretching out their hands to you on every side. Lives that have been ruined, lives that are on the way to ruin are appealing for some help; it is to you that they look for hope and assistance. They are begging you to extricate them from this awful vortex, to show them in their doubt and disarray the shining torch of truth. Tell them what nature has made necessary and what she has made superfluous. Tell them how simple are the laws she has laid down, and how straightforward and enjoyable life is for those who follow them and how confused and disagreeable it is for others who put more trust in popular ideas than they do in nature.

*The text for three or four words is corrupt to the point of being untranslatable.

Seneca believed that studying Stoicism was pointless if you did not help others. Since Stoicism is a simple and straight forward philosophy word games are not helpful to others in need of advice.

All right if you can point out to me where those puzzles are likely to bring such people relief. Which of them removes cravings or brings them under control? If only they were simply unhelpful! They’re actually harmful. I’ll give you the clearest proof whenever you like of their tendency to weaken and enfeeble even eminent talents once applied to such quibbles. And when it  comes to saying how they equip people proposing to do battle with fortune and what weapons they offer them, one hangs one’s head with shame. Is this the way to our supreme ideal? Do we get there by means of all that ‘if X, Y, or if not Y, Z’ one finds in philosophy? And by means of quibbles that would be shameful and discreditable even among persons occupying themselves with law reports? When you’re leading the person you’re questioning into a trap, aren’t you just making it look as if he has lost his case on a purely technical point of pleading? The praetor’s court, however, restores litigants losing in this way to their rightful position, and philosophy does the same for the people thus questioned. Why do philosophers like you abandon the magnificent promises you have made? After assuring me in solemn terms that you will see to it that my eyes shall no more be overwhelmed by the glitter of gold than by the glitter of a sword, that I shall spurn with magnificent strength of purpose the things all other men pray for and the things all other men are afraid of, why do you have to descend to the schoolroom A B C? What do you say?  Is this the way to the heavens?* For that is what philosophy has promised me – that she will make me God’s equal. That’s the invitation and that’s what I’ve come for; be as good as your word.

*Sic itur ad astra? Thus one goes to the stars.

How can I be helpful if I quibble over what a person means when they tell me about their problems?  I understand sometimes there are real differences of opinion between honest people, but it is too easy to hide behind intentional obtuseness and dishonest definitions. If you have ever seen Steven Crowder’s Change My Mind episodes, one of the first things he does is explain the definitions to try to minimize this tendency. Of course, it doesn’t stop the dishonesty, but it does help keep it to a minimum.

 

Keep clear, then, my dear Lucilius, as far as you can, of the sort of quibbles and qualifications I’ve been mentioning in philosophers. Straightforwardness and simplicity are in keeping with goodness. Even if you had a large part of your life remaining before you, you would have to organize it very economically to have enough for all the things that are necessary; as things are, isn’t it the height of folly to learn inessential things when time’s so desperately short!

We all have an expiration date and don’t know when it is. Arguing over definitions and terms seems like a shortsighted way to spend my time. In my office when they talk about the “pay gap”, “mass shootings”, “fascism”, and things like that, sometimes it’s hard to not say something, but I know they would not accept any definition that wasn’t in keeping with their team, so I don’t waste my breath.

 

This week’s music is Krokus.

I used to have the Headhunter cassette tape when I was 14 or 15 and I hadn’t heard it in a long time.

I heard this on MTV’s Metal Mania and it is a great song. (ignore the video, it’s dumber than dirt)

It reminded me of the tape I used to have and I thought that it was underrated by people so I bought the CD.

Maybe it wasn’t so underrated, but I still like Eat the Rich.

Headhunter has a good beat to it, and the singer is pretty good, maybe if they had better management and songwriting they could have been a more serious band.

About The Author

ron73440

ron73440

What I told my wife when she said my steel Baby Eagle .45 was heavy, "Heavy is good, heavy is reliable, if it doesn't work you could always hit him with it."-Boris the Blade MOLON LABE

158 Comments

  1. UnCivilServant

    Sometimes it is too easy to give a flippant or half thought out answer when asked a difficult question.

    If someone is actually asking me a serious question, I do try to give a serious answer, because it matters. I do so love being flippant though. Thankfully, I think you lot understand when I’m doing that.

    • ron73440

      It helps when you wear your flippant gloves.

      • Tres Cool

        DO they pair with flippant-flops ?

    • NoDakMat

      Yeah, whatever.

  2. Bob Boberson

    I do not have any close friends in my life, but I do try to be beneficial to my acquaintances when needed.

    In my experience very few people have close friendships outside of those of convenience. You like the same things, enjoy tipping back a beer or two? Cool. A real friend is the one who is there for more than recreation and socializing and will truly sacrifice time and resources if needed as would you, in turn. These types of friendships only come along once or twice in a lifetime.

    • Bob Boberson

      As does correct html’ing if you are me

    • UnCivilServant

      Having grown up with a lot of people who’ll rip you off or otherwise take advantage of anyone who offers aid, generosity does not come easily, but conversely, I don’t expect aid in return. I’ve gotten to the point where de minimis sorts of favors are no longer an issue, but trusting people is difficult.

      It’s probably not the best mindset, but it is what it is.

      • Bob Boberson

        I struggle with this too. My faith mandates that I be loving and charitable, which I truly want to be. However there are so many people out there who prey on our better instincts as to make charity seem like a waste of time and money. I want to feed the poor, but I’m unwilling to feed the poor who refuse to feed themselves.

      • Gender Traitor

        Dayton seems to be plagued with panhandlers at any given interstate exit, and every time I see one, I get irritated. I figure if they’re healthy enough to stand around outside, they’re healthy enough to perform some sort of labor, even if it’s just holding a sign for some furniture store’s liquidation sale.

      • UnCivilServant

        But can they show up and work the whole shift?

        The biggest advantage to professional panhandling is setting your own hours. Once you’ve had enough, you go get high in your preferred haunt and are done until the money runs out.

      • Nephilium

        The real fun comes with the ones standing here at intersections where there’s multiple businesses with Now Hiring signs up (including ones that offer daily pay).

    • slumbrew

      “A good friend will help you move, but a true friend will help you move a body.”

      • UnCivilServant

        Not so much, because after the mody has been moved, you have to eliminate the assistant who knows where it went.

        You don’t do that to a friend.

    • kinnath

      I have many acquaintances.

      I have a handful of friends.

      • Mojeaux

        My only friends are online and I like to keep them that way. Meet up every once in a while or maybe only once in a lifetime, and I’m good.

        Friendship takes work and I’m too self-involved to do the work to BE a friend.

      • Nephilium

        That’s where I am as well.

    • The Hyperbole

      I have a half dozen or so friends like that, of course I’m one hell of a great guy so that probably explains it.

    • ron73440

      I had some real friends in the Marine Corps, but since retiring, I work with Navy people and they’re different.

      The closest to a friend in my office is an Army guy, he was infantry and the 2 of us had a lot of similar experiences.

      • Bobarian LMD

        Something about Brothers in Arms/ No honor among whores.

    • Timeloose

      I can make a “best friend” for a night or a weekend. My wife is the same. We both understand that these are BS friendships and barely acquaintances.

      We also each have lifelong friends that are much more exclusive and subsequently meaningful. These people get the benefit of the doubt, my time, money, and support when needed. We also expect the same and if we don’t get it we start to question the friendship. This is all within the context of their and our means. For example, I make more money than you and will buy a meal and drinks without thinking about it, but you don’t expect me to do it. At the same time I don’t have the time to plan a trip that you invited us on, but you have spent the time finding all of the stuff I would really enjoy and the best places to stay, but I didn’t expect you to do it.

      Give and take, but not always with the same things.

      For family, I treat them like my real friends, but I don’t expect to get the same from them. Unfortunately I’m disappointed more than surprised. At the same time I’ve accepted this situation, as I value my family more than I mind being disappointed by them. The disappointment is due to how we see and react to the world, not something I can change in them. I can adjust my reactions to their actions.

  3. Tundra

    What would libertarianism be without quibbling?

    All mankind are stretching out their hands to you on every side. Lives that have been ruined, lives that are on the way to ruin are appealing for some help; it is to you that they look for hope and assistance. They are begging you to extricate them from this awful vortex, to show them in their doubt and disarray the shining torch of truth. Tell them what nature has made necessary and what she has made superfluous. Tell them how simple are the laws she has laid down, and how straightforward and enjoyable life is for those who follow them and how confused and disagreeable it is for others who put more trust in popular ideas than they do in nature.

    A beautiful bit of writing there. And really cuts to the heart of what it means to live a happy life.

    Thanks, Ron!

    • ron73440

      how confused and disagreeable it is for others who put more trust in popular ideas than they do in nature

      I like that line, it shows how people haven’t changed after 2000 years.

  4. Drake

    Talking to my brother last night. He runs a small firm and was in the process of letting 2 people go – long story, sexual harassments and other crap.

    After a long day of dealing with the first guy who was clearly nuts and making sure he was locked out, they weren’t able to locate guy #2. All his managers were pushing him to fire and lock the guy out of everything, My brother told them that it had already been a long day and he was going to wait on that decision. Turns out guy #2 was meeting with a client, explaining that he was leaving, and working on getting the account moved over to somebody else smoothly. Would have been a crap-storm if my brother had taken the bad advice and reacted with minimal info.

    • UnCivilServant

      So Guy #2 was good at the job portion of the job, just not the behavior portion of the job?

      • slumbrew

        “Was that wrong? Should I not have done that?”

      • Drake

        Yes

  5. Mojeaux

    Generosity. That’s an interesting thing for me.

    So, growing up, we were poor. I didn’t really grok what that truly meant. My parents were spending their money on private schools for me and my brothers. However, my dad was kind of anti-rich-people in a weird (I think envy-driven) way.

    That said, he was generous to a fault, and I do mean a fault, and he wanted me to be generous too. But his idea of generosity was telling me to give back money I earned babysitting because those people needed it more than I did. Needless to say, I didn’t work much when I was a kid/teenager.

    What that means now is, I have a hard time being generous. Every time I give, I feel like I’m being stolen from, conned.

    • Nephilium

      For friends and acquaintances, I’ll give the benefit of the doubt and offer to help if I can. If I find out that they were trying to scam me or take advantage of me, I consider learning that a small price to pay to cut someone like that out of my life.

      I also believe you can be generous without giving money, some people need time, attention, empathy, and sympathy more than cash.

      • R.J.

        Oh yes. To me, giving time and expertise is more precious than money. In most cases money doesn’t solve a problem, it just perpetuates it.

      • Mojeaux

        I also believe you can be generous without giving money, some people need time, attention, empathy, and sympathy more than cash.

        Oh, well, yes. I don’t mind emotionally investing in people in various ways. In fact, it sometimes pains me when I ask for payment for something I just KNOW. (I’ve gotten 3 requests so far to look at libertarian children’s books, and I’m going to do that despite the fact that I have no time.)

        I don’t mind giving my time and knowledge. It was a lesson my karate sensei tried to teach me, to not give my knowledge away, but the lesson never really took right.

      • The Last American Hero

        Sandler say’s don’t spill your candy.

    • ron73440

      Most of the people at work are more affluent than me, they are either a 2 income houehold or single, so I haven’t been asked for money.

      I have helped with car diagnosis and let one guy bring his car to my garage and helped him with a vale cover gasket and tune up.

      I have also used my truck to carry things for people.

      When I was in the Marines, I was dealing with younger people often and while I didn’t help financially, I would help them locate cheap appliances and work on their cars for lunch.

  6. DEG

    I also asked him to consider that with his wife having mental issues(nothing dangerous, more anger at him for no reason) what kind of life would his daughters have with her because as an active duty Marine his chances of retaining custody were slim to none. He told me that I was the only person that told him anything like that and he appreciated the fact my answer was a lot more thoughtful than anyone else’s advice. Last time I talked to him, his wife had calmed down and they were happy again.

    Good his wife got back to normal.

    Reading this, I was reminded of a dinner someone I knew arranged for a friend of hers that was planning on moving to the Boston area for a job. The person planning to move asked something along the lines of “Why should I move to Boston? Why should I take this job I’m interviewing for?” Everyone except me responded with some variation of “Of course you should! Boston is great!” My response was, “There are good and bad things about the area. Whether or not moving here is a good idea depends on what you want, what you like, and what you don’t like.” All the folks that responded with the “Of course you should!” response either looked dumbfounded (“I don’t understand what he said.”) or with shock (“How could this knuckle-dragger say such a thing! It’s obvious Boston is great!”).

    The woman considering a move to Boston looked at me and said, “Thank you for taking my question seriously. You’re the only that did.”

    She and I talked about pros and cons of the area. Most everyone else went off into their own little worlds.

    She ended up not taking the job. The interview was…. weird according to what she told me.

    • UnCivilServant

      Boston… would destroy me.

      Given my hangups about parking and their legendarily bad supply, that alone would wreck me.

      Other people have other priorities, but the first thing that springs to mind when I hear that city is the stories about the parking wars between residents.

      • slumbrew

        It varies by neighborhood. Some places, like Southie (South Boston, shown in the commercial below) would indeed an issue for you.

  7. CPRM

    Bringing over from the dead thread:

    SDF-7 on April 14, 2023 at 7:14 am
    Well, if we’re sharing — we watched Batman vs. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles yesterday afternoon. It was surprisingly good — treated both franchises with respect (well, I think they downplayed Damian Waynes abilities a bit for comic relief, in all honesty) but still had a lot of fun with the premise.

    The artist who drew the books that movie was based on is Freddie Williams, and he seems like a pretty cool dude.

    • UnCivilServant

      I forgot to ask, how did they cover the issue with the turtles being expressly from a Marvel continuity* and ending up crossing a DC continuity?

      *the mutagen was spilled explicitly in the accident that blinded Matt Murdock

      • CPRM

        They didn’t cover that, only that they are in NY.

      • The Last American Hero

        Casey Jones is just Batman on a tight budget.

  8. kinnath

    Daily Quordle 445
    5️⃣7️⃣
    3️⃣4️⃣
    m-w.com/games/quordle
    ⬜⬜⬜⬜🟨 🟨⬜⬜⬜⬜
    ⬜⬜⬜🟨🟩 ⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
    ⬜🟩⬜🟨⬜ ⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
    ⬜🟨⬜⬜⬜ ⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
    🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 ⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
    ⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛ 🟨⬜🟨🟨⬜
    ⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛ 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

    ⬜🟨🟨⬜⬜ ⬜⬜🟩⬜🟨
    ⬜⬜⬜🟨🟨 ⬜⬜🟨⬜⬜
    🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 🟩⬜⬜⬜⬜
    ⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛ 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

    fuck the upper right word.

  9. Drake

    Put out an offer on a house that was accepted yesterday. Far more than I had planned to spend of course. First thing my wife says: “Our furniture isn’t nice enough for this place. I’ll need an interior decorator and new furniture…”

    Me trying to be stoic as life’s savings rapidly disappears.

    Me failing.

    • Sean

      Congrats!

      First thing my wife says: “Our furniture isn’t nice enough for this place. I’ll need an interior decorator and new furniture…”

      😂🤣😂🤣

      • Grumbletarian

        You may need to arrange that with your next husband.

    • ron73440

      Congratulations and condolences.

    • Sensei

      Congratulations!

  10. R.J.

    “ ‘Mouse is a syllable, and a mouse nibbles cheese; therefore, a syllable nibbles cheese.’ Suppose for the moment I can’t detect the fallacy in that.”

    Every lefty I see online can’t detect that fallacy.

    • kinnath

      Time is money, and money talks. Thus time talks.

      Only time will tell.

      • Bobarian LMD

        God is Love; Love is Blind; Ray Charles is Blind;

        :. Ray Charles is God.

      • kinnath

        not wrong

      • Nephilium

        The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read.

        –Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!

  11. The Late P Brooks

    “ ‘Mouse is a syllable, and a mouse nibbles cheese; therefore, a syllable nibbles cheese.’ Suppose for the moment I can’t detect the fallacy in that.”

    Every lefty I see online can’t detect that fallacy.

    Mice cause cheese.

    • R.J.

      Yeah. Nice to know that dishonest arguments happened even back then. Nothing ever changes.

    • Gender Traitor

      Hmmm… I wonder – if I got some mice, could I keep the cats from killing them?

      • UnCivilServant

        If you had an appropriately fortified housing for the mice, maybe. That wouldn’t stop them from trying.

        Sometimes I think about getting a pet mouse. But I’m not sure I’m ready for the responsibility.

      • kinnath

        start with a goldfish

      • Sean

        Paint a little gothic mouse arch on your baseboard and pretend.

      • Gender Traitor

        Your affinity for travel would be the greatest complicating factor with any pet, I think. ::pictures UCS cruising down the highway with a mouse riding shotgun::

      • UnCivilServant

        Yeah, shotguns are not the best weapons for mice.

      • ron73440

        I was picturing him holding a shotgun with a mouse riding on the front sight.

      • UnCivilServant

        “Oh, that’s Scortch, he doesn’t learn from his mistakes”

      • kinnath

        I love this place

      • ron73440

        When I was a kid, my mom’s cat killed my pet bird.

        It was usually an outdoor cat and I didn’t know it was in the house.

        Quite traumatizing for a 12 year old.

      • UnCivilServant

        Cats are good at that.

        Luckily Mice don’t typically last more than 1-2 years in captivity. Birds… they have a longer life expectancy when not interrupted.

      • limey

        Bird, Interrupted was the title of that late ’90s Winona Ryder movie when it was released in the UK.

  12. R.J.

    Krokus! Great choice for today. I too, am tied to a woe tree. I escaped twice this week to have drinks so I probably shouldn’t complain too much.

    • R.J.

      You think he still wears those pirate boots?

      • ron73440

        Wouldn’t you?

      • R.J.

        Yes. I did find a recent photo, he has switched to stylish cowboy boots.

  13. The Late P Brooks

    Sometimes I think about getting a pet mouse. But I’m not sure I’m ready for the responsibility.

    Don’t forget that squeaky exercise wheel at all hours of the day and night.

    • UnCivilServant

      Isn’t that what lubrication is for?

      • Bobarian LMD

        Don’t forget the duct tape.

      • Nephilium

        Brooks may have gone through his complimentary drum already.

      • UnCivilServant

        So open the Insulting drum.

    • Gender Traitor

      Maybe he could get a teeny tiny little Bowflex instead.

      • ron73440

        It’s OK if they are good runners, but why would you want stronger mice?

      • UnCivilServant

        We need commandos to fight the armies of the Rat Czar

  14. wdalasio

    I’m curious if my understanding of the progressive mindset rings accurate. I’m decidedly against progressivism, pretty much in totality. But, I think it’s at least helpful to try to capture the underlying assumptions of the whole enterprise. I think it goes something like this.

    It starts with the presumption of intellectual superiority. And you look around you and see no shortage of barbarity and backward superstition. And no shortage of human suffering. And you see that and you think, it doesn’t need to be that way. I know better than this. And your political agenda becomes to fix the things you see as broken. You might not have all the specific answers. But, you have no doubt that you can bring in the right experts to fix things. You could bring in all the best people from across society to work together to figure out solutions. You could make things efficient, streamlined, well-managed, and controlled. If people would just fking go along with it! But, they just want to cling to their greed and selfishness and ignorance and backwardness! We don’t need controls to check power. We need controls to ensure that power is used wisely. And if some people are square pegs in the round holes of bourgeois society, well, bourgeois society is the square peg in the round hole of the society we need to create.

    Is that a rough approximation of where their ideas stem from?

    • Pine_Tree

      I’d say it starts deeper, with what I’d say is a belief in the perfectability of mankind/life, etc. Hence “Progress” towards that. Tosses out all the old copybook headings around original sin, total depravity, and even the everyday observations thereof. So in that modern, materialist view that belief in the perfectability of life is it – the root of their new religion.

      So then they look inwardly at themselves as the arbiter of whatever is true and right, and then lo and behold, of course whatever they already think is clearly right because they think it (your “intellectual superiority” note). But they don’t believe in their intellectual superiority because they’ve objectively challenged/measured etc. and then decided upon it – it was a self-licking ice-cream cone the whole time.

      • R.J.

        I think a lot of the downfall of progressivism is the desire to create change in things that are not under their control, this resulting in larger and larger power structures that restrict liberty at large. That is what drives them.

      • juris imprudent

        Yeah, I’d say they start from a position of moral superiority more than intellectual.

      • creech

        Christian progressives in particular.

    • Bob Boberson

      I’m definitely lighting the Glowie signal but “Industrial Society and its Future” sums it up pretty succinctly. It’s either base envy or over socialization or both.

  15. The Late P Brooks

    I may be obsessed with this recent EPA/NHTSA regulatory landgrab, but it seems to me to be the perfect illustration of the ass backwards thinking of “those people”. They conjure a number(CAFE mileage, tailpipe emissions) out of thin air, and demand the world will conform to it. Tell them it can’t be done and they accuse you of lying.

    50 mpg CAFE mileage? Sure, why not 100, or 1000? If you hold your breath and stamp your feet hard enough, anything is possible.

    • Tundra

      Yeah, I guess they still don’t feel comfortable telling us that their goal is the elimination of privately-owned vehicles.

      Except for the important people, of course.

    • Timeloose

      The logic is simply; we have cars that can go 50 mpg, so why can’t we make all cars do this? I’m sure the CAFE and EPA have experts that understand that the IC engine is 95% as refined as its going to be. The issues are that the same people mandating mileage requirements are also the ones requiring safety and crashworthiness metrics be met.

      Also to reach 50 MPG the carmakers would either have to drastically reduce performance to a level last seen in the 1970-1980’s or add BEV and HEV to the mix to compensate. Likely both would be preferable, as the former would force consumers to the latter.

  16. juris imprudent

    My wife is going to need some stoicism – she is a huge social media bug and her FB account was hacked and apparently deleted. Even better, the FB app on her iPhone crapped up her phone.

    FB is fucking stupid and evil.

    • R.J.

      Sure is. My wife has that app. It puts tendrils all over your device, and you can tell it is constantly transmitting data due to the difference in battery life. Even after deletion I think bits of it remain. Hard reset the device to remove it all.

      • juris imprudent

        This may actually convince her, I’ve had no luck prior to.

      • R.J.

        Has she noticed her phone getting warm all the time? The phone is working hard to send data back and forth to Facebook.
        Pat could probably say it better. Maybe put up the Pat Signal?

      • Nephilium

        You could easily show it by having the phone connect to a home wireless network, and either do a packet capture or a search on the router to see how many connections are going out from the phone to any of the Facebook domains.

      • R C Dean

        “do a packet capture or a search on the router”

        “Easily”

    • Fatty Bolger

      Was it really deleted, or did they just change the password?

      I’d be concerned about her other accounts. Did she use the same password for anything important?

      • Bobarian LMD

        This happened to my Tweeter account. Some ETH Crytpocoin thing owns my account now.

      • juris imprudent

        Nothing critical on her phone (I absolutely forbid banking on the phone). So nothing to connect to our finances.

      • Fatty Bolger

        OK, but it wouldn’t have to be on the phone. A lot of people use the same password for everything, or for multiple things.

      • juris imprudent

        No, she doesn’t. We have the Book of the Dead in my office – list of websites and passwords. Not concerned with anyone accessing it if they already in my house.

      • Fatty Bolger

        Weird that it got hacked in the first place, then. Any idea how it happened?

      • Sean

        Russian haxxors.

      • Nephilium

        Yeah. There’s reasons I prefer not to use third party logins for accounts. No thanks, I would really prefer not to log into your ticketing system with my Facebook/Google/Amazon/etc account. I’ll give you an e-mail address and you’ll like it.

      • juris imprudent

        Oh yeah, she understood not to do that either.

    • ron73440

      That seems accurate.

      I watched a couple shorts from the podcast, and I don’t know which was worse, the women with no sense of their value, or the host explaining how wrong they were.

    • JaimeRoberto (carnitas/spicy salsa)

      I was stuck on a tour bus last week with a couple young American women who had the worst vocal fry. They were loud, foul mouthed and would talk over the tour guide when he spoke Spanish for the locals who were on the bus with us. One was mildly attractive, but her personality was a complete turnoff. I don’t see how any guy would be interested in them for anything more than a one night stand. OK, maybe two nights, because the penis is evil. I finally had to tell them to shut up, and they were being rude because others were trying to listen. (I’ll put in the preemptive OK Boomer, even though I’m Gen X.) It was like listening to The Californians, but less funny. I wish they would have taken La Reforma to Los Insurgentes and gotten out of town.

  17. Timeloose

    OT survey:
    I’m having the pad for my garage / workshop poured we speak. The structure is completed outside and i need to determine how I will finish the inside. Money is always a consideration, but I will trade cost for ease of installation, looks and performance. I’m looking for a good looking but functional space. I don’t want some cleanroom or operating room.

    I plan to run electrical next for the lights, outlets, and lift. The choice of wall coverings will determine if I stud and run electric through the walls or in conduit outside of the walls. I will insulate with either fiberglass matt or foam if I don’t plan on running materials.

    Drywall is out, as I don’t want to to worry about moisture and inadvertent damage ruining the final product. Plus I don’t care to spackle and sand as I suck at it.
    I considered wood, metal, plastic, and some combination.

    I think I will do a metal panel from the floor to about 3-4′ of the 11′ wall, then some kind of wood either finished or painted to the ceiling. The ceiling is already white painted steel.

    My needs:
    I want to have a clean look from the floor to the work bench level. This will also make it easier to keep clean.
    I want to easily hang and build shelves using the wall as well as work benches. I also want to hang tools like shovels, ladders, and bikes.
    I will be doing auto and bike repair and restoration in the space as well as use for vehicle storage.
    I plan to only heat it minimally in the winter (50F)

    Does anyone have any other ideas, suggestions, or comments.

    • kinnath

      I used pegboard in my garage. Looks like shit because I did the install. But it is quite functional.

      • Timeloose

        I intended to use some channel panels at about 4′ to allow easy hanging of tools.

    • Tundra

      Neat!

      I’m a big fan of corrugated steel. The basement in my last house was finished that way and it looks super cool. External conduit as well.

      Good luck with the project!

      • Timeloose

        The entire wall of part of it?

      • Tundra

        Entire wall. Trimmed out with 1×4 and 2×2 (corners)

        Part way with reclaimed barnwood would look cool, too.

    • Mojeaux

      I want to have a clean look from the floor to the work bench level. This will also make it easier to keep clean.
      I want to easily hang and build shelves using the wall as well as work benches. I also want to hang tools like shovels, ladders, and bikes.
      I will be doing auto and bike repair and restoration in the space as well as use for vehicle storage.
      I plan to only heat it minimally in the winter (50F)

      I have many ideas. They involve 1x4s and a lot of work.

      • slumbrew

        That looks sweet.

      • ron73440
      • Sensei

        I did the same. Everybody said the couldn’t get all the cabinets delivered without at least a few being dented up.

        They were correct. It wasn’t badly dented enough to send back or go through customer service hell, but it was annoying.

        I like the cabinets, however.

      • Timeloose

        Those are nice. I considered using vinyl for the entire wall, with a channel section for hanging shelves and hooks.

    • Bobarian LMD

      Spray foam insulation. A good epoxy coating on the floor. Use conduit on the inside so you can modify/expand more easily. Peg-board for the walls is handy for a workspace.

      • Timeloose

        I used steel pegboard on the back of my workbench in the basement. It looks pretty cool.

      • Timeloose

        I wanted to add a conduit at two levels inside the walls with a cap to allow for future expansion at 8′ intervals.

    • Sensei

      https://youtu.be/xpvLes6KbwE?t=587

      Insulation + tape. Meets fire code too.

      Doesn’t look cheap, but these guys squeeze each buck and are good with dollar versus labor trade-offs.

  18. The Late P Brooks

    I’d say the greatest part of progressivism falls under the heading of infantile “Mememeee! I want I want I waaaant!”

  19. The Late P Brooks

    When I was a kid, my mom’s cat killed my pet bird.

    My cat killed a lot of birds, and my mom hated it. She had birdfeeders, and flowers, and all that jazz, and every so often she;d come in from finding a pile of feathers and say, “That goddam cat! He killed my [insert bird]!”

  20. slumbrew

    Handy glibs:

    I bought some inexpensive patio furniture (table+4 chairs) during the pandemic and was too lazy to bring it inside this winter.

    https://www.wayfair.com/outdoor/pdp/mercury-row-square-4-person-315-long-dining-set-with-cushions-w004936830.html

    It’s “teak” – i.e., shitty teak-colored finish on acacia(?)

    Planning on hitting it with a sander and throwing some white paint on it – just use a brush or get a weenie roller + a brush for the fiddly-bits? Other? Buy a sprayer? (although I’d be worried about over-spray given my small working space in the driveway). Just plain old exterior latex?

    I never paint, so any tips will be appreciated.

    • kinnath

      Try a semi-transparent deck stain. Leave some of the grain exposed by protect the wood.

    • Drake

      That’s inexpensive?

      • slumbrew

        It was significantly cheaper than that but, yes, compared to some other options.

  21. The Late P Brooks

    Planning on hitting it with a sander and throwing some white paint on it

    Is it too shitty to put urethane on it and keep the wood grain exposed?

    • slumbrew

      Good question – I’ll know more after I hit it with the sander. I suspect, yes, it’s too shitty but maybe it’ll clean up OK.

      • R.J.

        Urethane would be the better choice. Or a polyurethane paint that can shrink and grow as the furniture does. If applied in a good temperature and humidity range it should seal hard and not feel sticky.

      • slumbrew

        Closer:

        https://ibb.co/yPypzgv

        Not sure that’s worth urethane vs. just going white, but I could be convinced.

      • kinnath

        Looks just like mine.

        I am doing nothing with mine at this point.

      • slumbrew

        Also an option.

        I bought a hugely-oversized container of mineral oil a couple years back – I wonder if just cleaning, sanding & oiling might be worth doing.

        I’m assuming I can pressure-wash it and just let it dry in the sun.

      • Scruffyy Nerfherder

        Don’t pressure wash it. It just raises the grain and splinters the surface.

        Sand it and finish. Teak oils and the sort have plenty of solids to seal it up.

      • R.J.

        Agreed. Don’t add water to anything you want to paint.

      • slumbrew

        Thanks, all, for the pointers.

        I will attempt sand & teak oil, see how it comes out.

    • Tundra

      Glorious.

    • Sean

      L O L

  22. kinnath

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/marjorie-taylor-greene-defends-suspect-leaked-classified-docs-probe-rcna79675

    Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene on Thursday defended the man arrested in connection with a high-profile investigation into leaked classified documents.

    In a tweet just hours after the FBI arrested Massachusetts Air National Guardsman Jack Teixeira, 21, Greene, R-Ga., praised his alleged actions and implied President Joe Biden was “the real enemy.”

    “Jake Teixeira is white, male, christian, and antiwar. That makes him an enemy to the Biden regime. And he told the truth about troops being on the ground in Ukraine and a lot more,” Greene, a member of the Homeland Security Committee, said on Twitter. “Ask yourself who is the real enemy?”

    Green is a nutcase. And it pains me deeply that I agree with her more and more as time goes on.

    • Fatty Bolger

      he told the truth about troops being on the ground in Ukraine

      They sure have been glossing over that little tidbit in the MSM, haven’t they?

    • juris imprudent

      Well I don’t agree with her. She’s playing a stupid game. The question is – why is the truth a secret?

      • Pine_Tree

        Because in their minds, the real enemy is the American people.

      • Tundra
    • Tres Cool

      I hate to say it, but she had me with Jewish Space Laser.

      Totally would.